Creative Freedom!

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Marrow
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Creative Freedom!

Postby Marrow » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:58 pm

http://creativefreedom.org.nz/index.html
Basically a movement to try and oppose this copyright bill that has a 'guilty until proven innocent' system.
Its pretty fucked up, so support the movement.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:00 am

Cool, another thread massively misrepresenting the issue.



FAIL.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Rob Anybody » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:47 pm

Fearful_Jesuit wrote:Cool, another thread massively misrepresenting the issue.



FAIL.


shut the fuck up, One Trick McPony.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Spots2012 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:05 pm

Totally.


THe music/entertainment industry needs to EVOLVE.


Basically free music: people buy merchandise, concerts etc.

MORE LIVE PERFORMANCES PLEASE.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:18 pm

Rob Anybody wrote:
Fearful_Jesuit wrote:Cool, another thread massively misrepresenting the issue.



FAIL.


shut the fuck up, One Trick McPony.


Go boil your head Phil.
The parasites are excited when you're dead; eyes bulging, entering your head; and all your thoughts yeah, they rot.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Rob Anybody » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:24 pm

Spots2012 wrote:Totally.


THe music/entertainment industry needs to EVOLVE.


Basically free music: people buy merchandise, concerts etc.

MORE LIVE PERFORMANCES PLEASE.

personally im hoping the music industry actually dies, at least in its current incarnation, 99% of music from that great behemoth is horrible and should be destroyed even at the expense of a minority of good music.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Danny Morrissey » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:58 pm

Pretty shit for musicians if that happens.

Most of them probably want to spend their time actually making music instead of relentless touring.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby hiv-positive » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:22 pm

Spots2012 wrote:Totally.


THe music/entertainment industry needs to EVOLVE.


Basically free music: people buy merchandise, concerts etc.

MORE LIVE PERFORMANCES PLEASE.


I don't think you quite understand the music business... Labels, promoters, venue owners, PA, lighting, rigging, production and crewing companies don't do anything for free and nor should they.

Record companies are already trying to write clauses in contracts demanding percentages of tour and merchandise profits from acts, as if taking the lions share of album sales wasn't enough for them. Arse, in my opinion. Most bands are incredibly lucky to break even on album sales and related expenses, and the money they make selling merchandise depends entirely on their ability to tour relentlessly and consistently perform to a large and appreciative audience with open wallets. Iron Maiden are the perfect example of a band who did pretty much everything right from the outset, as far as I can tell. Start your own touring company and spend all of your cash on purchasing the rig you require instead of living it up. Sort out all of your own merchandise licensing and leave the album sales to take care of the record company advances. Give or take, that's pretty much the only way to not get raped by the music business. Of course, actually being good and possessing longevity probably wouldn't go amiss.

Controlling distribution and merch and taking on the headache of touring is pretty much the only way for acts to keep as much of their precious money in their own wallets. Not an easy series of tasks to maintain successfully.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Dennis from Accounts » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:36 pm

Danny Morrissey wrote:Pretty shit for musicians if that happens.

Most of them probably want to spend their time actually making music instead of relentless touring.


I was under the impression the opposite was usually true? Personally, I'd rather be in a studio recording but from what I've read, most bands/artists find the whole recording process boring and mundane.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Spots2012 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:31 pm

"Labels, promoters, venue owners, PA, lighting, rigging, production and crewing companies don't do anything for free and nor should they."

Make the fans pay to see a live performance.

Release your music for free on the internet for promotion.

The only expense in RECORDING is the RECORDING STUDIO.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby hiv-positive » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:53 pm

It just doesn't and wouldn't work out, bro.

Time spent in recording studios, producers, engineers, mastering services... it all adds up.

Sure, anyone can bang out an average, glossy, standard as to the point of bland pro-tools release, but yeah, no-one will care. Just like how no-one really cares about the thousands upon thousands of musicians who have myspaces and a love for sending spam who get nowhere. Sure, one act in a hundred thousand might get popular through the internet, but that's just one, and more than likely they'll just fizz out. And then there's print, radio and TV - the main tools for promoting acts to the masses. Your idea could work in say 50 years time when the internet is truly established amongst the entire populace, but the trade off there would be by the time it's realistic, it will also be far more controlled by the mass media - who, for better or worse, are the reason that bands who can put on concerts that attract enough people are able to do so. Double edged sword and all that.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:33 pm

so why do we need these superbands that arent even that good?
i dont care if i dont hear velvet revolvers latest single, in fact i wish id never heard of them.
what in the fuck do you think we'd miss out on?
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby hiv-positive » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:20 pm

You appear to be confusing my ability to see the reality of the situation with my personal interests, Phil. I don't give a fuck about super groups any more than you do. But our opinions don't matter when there are millions of people who are happy to listen to and pay for bands of that ilk. And that's the bottom line as far as those who control the media channels are concerned. If you're not a suburban middle class sheep who is easily swayed by shiny trinkets and 3 minute songs, you really don't matter in the scheme of things as far as the industry is concerned. And even then the majority of the bands who kids think are independent are just subsidiary label acts. The money almost always pours upwards.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Spots2012 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:33 pm

Right: So let free distribution determine which bands are actually good, and those bands go on tour.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:08 pm

yeh.. but the idea was to take some or all of the profit out of music

or was that just me dreaming?
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby steeltoedsneakers » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:16 pm

Spots2012 wrote:let free distribution determine which bands are actually good


cos that'll work..
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby puppykicker » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:23 pm

solution:

find one of the fake torrents that companies like media defender upload to TPB or mininova, then go around downloading said torrent from every open wireless connection you can find, every library, internet cafe, workplace etc you have access to. someone need to get into the parliament network and do the same.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby martyrdamn » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:14 pm

In a surprise announcement this afternoon, Attorney-General Chris Finlayson says the government will delay the implementation of the controversial Section 92a of the amended copyright law.

Computerworld spoke to technologist Nat Torkington who attended Finlayson's press conference this afternoon at 4pm.

Torkington says the government may suspend the controversial S92a if no agreement is reached between the parties on how to implement it.

Currently, New Zealand and representatives of overseas rights holders are negotiating with the Telecommunications Carriers Forum (TCF) on how to draft a code of practice for terminating the internet access for users accused of infringing copyrights.

Even if there is an agreement, Torkington says the government will monitor the first six months of the new regime and review the progress then.


Source: http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/86D681292534A2CCCC25756600143FD1
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:18 pm

ITT: Naive punks.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby The Real JeffJack. » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:21 pm

John Key said 1 month to make it work well or its gone :)

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:10 pm

Fearful_Jesuit wrote:ITT: Naive punks.

who?
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby hiv-positive » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:30 pm

Spots2012 wrote:Right: So let free distribution determine which bands are actually good, and those bands go on tour.


:facepalm:

Do you have any concept of how much 'free distribution' will cost artists? You would have to market this heavily across all the platforms and who would cover the cost? Can you conceive of the hideous percentages that labels will demand in order to justify this wonderful idea of yours? Do you honestly expect this to work without massive amounts of corporate interference? And would you be happy to see bands if there were ad breaks for Coke, Nike, L'Oreal, and Vodafone et al between each song?

Stick to trading cd-rs and going to $5 shows where you are comfortable and safe.

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:52 pm

Let us not forget, if the 'industry' and its cuntspawn collapses, and all we are left with are our part-timers, and our underground, would you really be prepared to suffer the influx of dudebros, supre hussies and other unwanted pop refugees into your precious local scene?
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby hiv-positive » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:07 pm

Fearful_Jesuit wrote:Let us not forget, if the 'industry' and its cuntspawn collapses, and all we are left with are our part-timers, and our underground, would you really be prepared to suffer the influx of dudebros, supre hussies and other unwanted pop refugees into your precious local scene?


Ex-fucking-act-fucking-ly!

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby YULE » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:16 pm

sif

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Phlegm » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:34 pm

hiv-positive wrote:
Fearful_Jesuit wrote:Let us not forget, if the 'industry' and its cuntspawn collapses, and all we are left with are our part-timers, and our underground, would you really be prepared to suffer the influx of dudebros, supre hussies and other unwanted pop refugees into your precious local scene?


Ex-fucking-act-fucking-ly!


hiv-positive, I'm genuinely curious on your opinions of this: http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/ ... e_fans.php

Long story short, this guy says if a band/artist has 1000 true fans (people who will spend money to purchase basically any output, go to any show that comes near, and basically will spend at least $100 a year on the band) that the band/artist can make a decent living without having to have write a top 10 hit.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Danny Morrissey » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:23 pm

Doesn't seem to take into account costs.

If it was $100 per fan pure profit it would be sweet. But for smaller artists the volumes of merch, albums etc make the margins a lot less.

Cool theory though.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby hiv-positive » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:32 pm

Phlegm wrote:hiv-positive, I'm genuinely curious on your opinions of this: http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/ ... e_fans.php

Long story short, this guy says if a band/artist has 1000 true fans (people who will spend money to purchase basically any output, go to any show that comes near, and basically will spend at least $100 a year on the band) that the band/artist can make a decent living without having to have write a top 10 hit.


An interesting concept. It definitely has potential for painters and authors, talent presumed, of course. I notice that he fails to assess the reality of the touring artist though and presumes that the digital mediums he advocates aren't as saturated as they are in reality. Also, does the $100,000 cover the costs of producing albums, merchandise, and touring costs, etc? $100,000 is not that much money in the grand scheme of covering promotion, flights, transport, hotels, gear hire, insurance and public liability... If the artist limited themselves to releases and merchandise only, or if they were say a one man acoustic guitar act who wrote poignant tunes and was happy to travel on buses and trains and the cheapest of cheap flights, then maybe it could well be a reality.

My issue is how the artist gets these 1000 true fans. How do they maintain the production and manufacturing costs of their products. And how do they keep these true fans happy in the face of ever changing individual tastes and opinions. He also mentions that many artists are not necessarily interested in actually maintaining that level of intimacy with their fans, which I would suspect is the major downfall of the whole concept.

It is a good idea in theory. In practice, maybe not.

edit - or what Danny said. :mrgreen:

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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby tyrannosaurus mark » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:40 am

Yeah, it's how they get those 1000 true fans that is the confusing part.
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Re: Creative Freedom!

Postby Rob Anybody » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:15 am

what i dont get is where you think punk bands got their fans from in the first place?
what do you think will change?
and you seem to be ignoring the bands that have already adapted to touring more and selling less records, which is obviously great.

theres plenty of bands releasing music on their own labels these days, i really dont get why youre saying it wont work.

p.s. dont confuse what im sayiung with what others have said please, there are no 'sides'
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."


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