Anarchists - to vote or not?

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Red_switch
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Red_switch » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:21 am

Fuck you. You are a tunnel visioned man. We should have a beer sometime
I think it's lint.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby BigBadBazza » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:21 am

you're real desperate for mates, aint ya redswitch
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Tartanperil » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:54 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:did you actually read my post or did you just... assume im thick?

No actually sorry. I skimmed it while rushing out the door and genuinely missed your qualifier (hence I did read it like your were a bit thick tbh). My mistake. :oops:

Though imho you are still wrong in your basic definition of anarchy. I don't see it as under-pinned by a do-as-you-like-but-don't-hurt-any-one philosophy. I see it as a community where everyone has a truly equal say and hence with rules of its own choosing. (those 2 things are of course not necessarily incompatible, but the basic understanding is I think different). In my view of anarchism it fits within a definition of socialism in that everyone has equal control and self-determination of their lives.

However, whether anarchism can be a form of socialism or not is irrelevant to the op - Leftish anarchists should feel no guilt if they choose to manipulate their vote to stop the very genuine suffering that a right-wing govt will bring those in poor economic positions. Equally, Rightist anarchists could choose to vote if it meant it stopped people they care about being fucked over.



Fiction & Falsehood wrote:fuck you dude, i think youre the biggest dick ive come across in a long time, and i think your motives are highly suspect.

Presumably to encourage people to vote Labour as you allege above somewhere?

Well no. Far from campaigning for Goff, I won't be voting for Labour - I personally wouldn't call them a left party; their only redeeming feature is that they are less wankers than National. I've spent over a decade fighting a policy introduced by Goff. Me campaigning for Labour is a fucking laugh.

But I will cast a vote to try and stop National returning to power and implementing their real agenda. I have friends that will be fucked over by them, and if that's a suspect motivation - 'fuck you' right back. I think I was pretty clear in the op that protecting those in poor positions in life was the motivation.

This thread is simply to encourage people to think about using their vote if using it can stop people they care about being fucked over, and not feel bad about voting as an anarchist because of some notion that voting validates the current dogma. :roll:

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:05 pm

its fairly clear that voting for green is voting for labour as greens cannot form a coalition with anyone else.

as far as the socialism aspect of anarchism goes, a society is instantly not anarchism if it states you must follow its rules and live in its fashion.
what if somebody chooses to run their community differently? will they be punished for not following your rules, not paying your tariffs?

consensus only works on a small group, you cant seriously imagine a whole country could be run this way, or are some who are more equal going to arrange matters for us?
your sort of anarchism is just communism lite.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:13 pm

its not that i think you cant live in that manner and consider it anarchy, im just objecting to the idea that you must, and the frankly ridiculous idea that you could govern a country with committees and experience anything less than massive corruption and oppression, have you seen the nz 'anarchist collective'?

my idea of anarchism is more that there would still be various social constructs built around industries and locations, but they would have extremely limited scope and certainly not suffer from any uniformity of design anymore than they have uniform purpose.

but thats only relevant as i am being forced to defend, i was speaking of the most basic concept of anarchism, which is simply that all people are free, and in order for all people to be free you must respect others rights.
i never said thats all there is to it, im fairly sure i used the same term 'basic concept' when i said 'freedom at the expense of no other'

unfortunately for all your posturing, i think like many in the banarchist scene you are simply and ironically looking for someone to tallk down to, hence the last page or two.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby arkie » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:59 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:its fairly clear that voting for green is voting for labour as greens cannot form a coalition with anyone else.


Greens have never formed a coalition with anyone.

If someone votes for the greens they are voting for the greens not the bloods. The more people vote for the greens, the fewer votes labour will get.

Also Parties in coalition aren't in a merger or anything, the different parties are expected to keep their unique policy and idealogical positions, they just work to support each other where they agree. So it's totally feasible that a significantly larger (than currently) green party could work with any of the parties if they can find enough in common.

This oft published idea of green vote being proxy labour votes is a misunderstanding of the MMP system that helps to perpetuate the schizophrenic swapping between the two establishment parties. I blame the media. haha.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:24 pm

i blame the fact that no matter who you vote for its gunna be labour or national.
so what youre saying is that more votes for greens over labour increases the chance of a national govt?
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby arkie » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:00 pm

Not really what i was saying, but it could happen. Your assumption is that only left wing voters would vote green, its not unreasonable but it not entirely accurate.

My point however, was that party votes for any party other than the bloods and crips are the only way to reduce the dominant parties hold on the government. While they (L & N) may well try to soak up the swing voters by playing off of each other as they usually do, the people with real change in mind should vote for any other parties of any political persuasion because that loss of constituency will tell them (N & L) they are doing it wrong. Or we could remain defeatist. Or squabble over individual interpretations of anarchism. Whatever works I guess.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:09 pm

i didnt make that assumption, i dont really think there is a such thing as left and right wing, when you think about it, political compasses are ridiculous.

in practice squabbling is what anarchism seems to be all about, and excluding and demonising ex-partners, friends or just anyone you disagree with.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby arkie » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:15 pm

Greens over Labour. I read that and made my own assumptions obviously.
There plainly are such things as left and right, liberal and conservative, but the political spectrum is definitely more like a venn diagram than a compass.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:19 pm

there are only such things in peoples minds, they dont exist in reality anymore than middle earth does.

look at how nazism and marxism are considered right and left political extremes respectively, how does that make sense?
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Tartanperil » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:21 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:my idea of anarchism is more that there would still be various social constructs built around industries and locations, but they would have extremely limited scope and certainly not suffer from any uniformity of design anymore than they have uniform purpose.

That's great. And I don't disagree.

But as above, what you think - and what you assume I think - anarchy is or isn't, is completely irrelevant to the op. Feel free to start your own thread on on that topic.

This thread is about whether anarchists should or shouldn't vote in state elections (Who you choose to vote for, or not, is a whole different thread. Literally).

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:39 pm

Tartanperil wrote:Anarchists and many other socialists

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:its not a form of socialism, whatever else it is.

Tartanperil wrote:You might want to tell the Anarchists at the First International that. :lol:

There are many streams of Anarchists, and sure not all leftist, but the vast majority would fall in the broad category of socialism or similar.

I think you may be limiting your idea of socialism to just being Marx's state-socialism.


you claimed anarchism is merely a form of socialism, i disagreed, you then became very condescending and insulting, deliberately misinterpreting what i said in an attempt to make me look stupid.

now, after 4 pages of back and forth i have successfully defended my position against all comers, and you now say its irrelevant.

fuck yeh, the cut and thrust of political debate!
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Tartanperil » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:45 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:you then became very condescending and insulting, deliberately misinterpreting what i said in an attempt to make me look stupid...

As I said, I genuinely misread one of your posts and admitted this on my very next post. If you can't handle people making mistakes boo hoo to you.


Fiction & Falsehood wrote:...now, after 4 pages of back and forth i have successfully defended my position against all comers, and you now say its irrelevant.

Yes. It's as irrelevant to this thread as it was when you first mentioned it and I foolishly replied to it.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:31 pm

you replied with that attitude in your very first to my assertion that anarchism is not a form of socialism, despite later 'misreading' and retracting youve kept up the same attitude the whole time, youre employing it now, implying that im just having a sook when in reality its you who is behaving childishly having seen it established that you are a charlatan with suspicious political motives, you want to steer the thread back toward establishing a platform for your beliefs
if you were any more than that you wouldnt have derided me instead of what i said, and you would have known damn well that while there is a such thing as anarcho-socialism, it no more means that all anarchists are socialists, than the fact there is a sub-genre called anarcho-punk means that all anarchists are punks.

it concerns me that while most people on this forum are strongly opposed to neo-nazism, they dont seem to be at all wary of the many other socialists and their extremes.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Tartanperil » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:35 pm

Yeah wicked.

Now on with some disscussion about why anarchists should or shouldn't vote...

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Red_switch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:09 pm

should eh
I think it's lint.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Lentil » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:47 pm

Some pieces from an article by Andrew Flood on voting

IT'S ELECTION time and as usual
politicians of all parties will be promising us
wonderful things....

The right to the vote was part of the hard won struggles
of workers (and suffragettes!) over the last couple of
hundred years. Obviously it is preferable to live in a
parliamentary democracy rather than a dictatorship.
Even the most flawed democracies are forced to concede
rights that dictatorships do not, such as relative
independence for trade unions, the right to limited
demonstrations, a certain amount of free speech, etc.

However it is clear that .. the amount of freedom is set
by how much the bosses need to give to keep the system
flowing, plus the amount that is forced from them
through the struggle of workers.

The real purpose of parliament is not to ensure the
country is run according to the wishes of all the people,
cherishing all their views equally. Parliament instead
provides a democratic facade beyond which the real
business of managing capitalism goes on.

The Goodman affair and the bailing out of Insurance
Corporation of Ireland a few years back demonstrate
how the real decisions are made in the boardrooms of
the large industrial concerns. In the unlikely event of a
government being elected which goes "too far" in the eyes
of the bosses they are quick to use any means necessary
to remove it.


BEHIND THE FACADE

The best known example of this is perhaps the removal
of the democratically elected Allende government in Chile
in 1972. They had attempted to bring in a limited
package of reforms and nationalise some of the larger
American industries. The result was a military coup
backed by the CIA.

The workers in Chile were politically disarmed by their
reliance on a small group of elected deputies to liberate
them. There was little organised resistance to the
military and in the immediate aftermath over 30,000
militants were executed and 1,000,000 fled into exile.

In practise however capitalism seldom finds need for
such methods, their complete control of the media and
the reliance of the political parties on big business for
funds is enough of a check.

...




Andrew Flood
Ireland
Last edited by Lentil on Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby 9seconds » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:05 pm

. wrote:also not sure if phil is posting here currently but wondering if he still really thinks socialist nationalism and national socialism is the same thing??

i am and i dont, never did, i was attempting to illustrate that just cos anarcho socialism exists, it doesnt mean all anarchists are now socialists.

im not as critical of socialists anymore, considering that any social/left movement is better than the alternative, and while i still hold anarchism as an ideal, i also still have disdain bordering on outright hostility for anarcho-narks and the banarchist community.

i also said fairly early on in this thread that i would never vote for Hone, but i was already turned around by Mana's (socialist) policy by the last election.

i still dont like greens, but am maybe gunna chuck my vote up the local guy, cos theres no mana/internet in my electorate, even tho he has no personality, nothing to say and a blank website :explainittomelikeimfive:
the only other alternative is the labour lady, but either way it doesnt really matter cos simon bridges is polling at 50% currently, so its pretty meaningless.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Max » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:31 pm

You live in Tauranga and you actually care who you vote for in the electorate vote? Vote ACT for the electorate for all I care, the party vote is the only one that matters.

For all its flaws (which National refuse to fix) I do like MMP, before you had virtually no influence unless you happened to live in a marginal electorate. Much more motivation to participate under the current system.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Lentil » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:49 pm

quotes about voting and parliament

Parliament or Democracy?

From the 1850s onwards, against a background of great new wealth in society and a working class that was more independent and resourceful, the 'problem of democracy' became urgent for the rich and powerful. In general wealth was rising throughout society, but so was the greed of those who owned the new factories, mines and plantations. The key question was: what was to be done about the general demand for democracy, and about the incessant clamour for political rights which, during the revolutions of 1848, had almost got completely out of hand?
Maintaining their privilege and wealth while generally conceding a semblance of democracy was the principal aim of the 'rich and privileged' during the second half of the 19th century. Parliament is a means of diffusing democracy, of channelling real struggles into a safe dead-end. Time and time again it has become a graveyard for the workers' movement.


Why dance around a problem when you can attack it directly? Reformists dilute social movements, softening and weakening them over time. The British Labour Party, after over 100 years of reformist practice, has done little more than manage capitalism, seen most of its reforms eliminated by right-wing governments (and by the following Labour government!) and the creation of a leadership of the party (in the shape of Tony Blair) which is in most ways as right-wing as the Conservative Party (if not more so).


Why do anarchists reject voting as a means for change?

Simply because electioneering does not work. History is littered with examples of radicals being voted into office only to become as, or even more, conservative than the politicians they replaced.

... Government is under pressure from two sources of power, the state bureaucracy and big business. This ensures that any attempts at social change would be undermined and made hollow by vested interests, assuming they even reached that level of discussion to begin with.

Taking capital to begin with, if we assume that a relatively reformist government was elected it would soon find itself facing various economic pressures. Either capital would disinvest, so forcing the government to back down in the face of economic collapse, or the government in question would control capital leaving the country and so would soon be isolated from new investment and its currency would become worthless. Either way, the economy would be severely damaged and the promised “reforms” would be dead letters.



“the function of the political system in any country in the world is to regulate, but not alter radically, the existing economic structure and its linked power relationships. The great illusion of politics is that politicians have the power to make whatever changes they like... On a larger canvas what real control do the politicians in any country have over the operation of the international monetary system, the pattern of world trade with its built in subordination of the third world or the operation of multi-national companies? These institutions and the dominating mechanism that underlies them — the profit motive as a sole measure of success — are essentially out of control and operating on autopilot.” [quoted in Alternatives, # 5, p. 10]
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby 9seconds » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:50 pm

Max wrote:You live in Tauranga and you actually care who you vote for in the electorate vote?


well i did just say it was meaningless and doesnt matter, the only reason i mentioned it is cos of my likelihood of voting for the green dipshit, despite my feelings about green, and even tho hes obviously totally phoning it in.

i assume its too late to get on the maori roll? cos i would rather vote for annette sykes in the waiariki electorate.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Max » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:41 pm

You've got a Maori great great grandparent? Then go for it. I wish I did, I'd much rather vote in Ikaroa-Rawhiti where my electorate vote might actually make a difference.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby 9seconds » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:26 am

nah, no maori ancestry, but i FEEL Maori enough to want my vote to count in this election.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Max » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:45 pm

Anyway, Simon Lusk's musings on non-voting are enough to convince me of the stupidity of the "don't vote it only encourages them" school of thought.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Agnes » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:45 pm

Perhaps this isn't a very anarchistic opinion to hold, but I reckon people who propose more democratic forms of government than the status quo (which I believe anarchism is in some forms), should take part in the political process regardless of how 'democratic' they might or might not deem it to be.

Claiming that electioneering doesn't work and the current system is flawed, then going away and ignoring the whole thing is hardly productive, or even counter productive.

Surely trying to effect political change in whatever way possible is better than declining participation in the most prevalent ones because it doesn't fit in one's narrow field of acceptable political action.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby arkie » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:04 pm

cue: but participation = endorsement!!!1!!

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Lentil » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:02 pm

I think alot of anarchists would also say it is more important what you are doing during the three years to make the country/world a better place.

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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby 9seconds » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:22 am

yeh, well, a lot of wet cunts do say useless crap.
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Re: Anarchists - to vote or not?

Postby Hipster_Faggot » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:55 am

Imagine not voting for National under accelerationist logics lmao.
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