Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

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Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:43 pm

Part 1: new-zealand-is-no-paradise-it-is-brutal

Part 2: new-zealand-is-no-paradise-is-it-the-most-sexist-place-on-earth

So everyones been discussing these on FB, thought I'd chuck em up in punkas...

Part 1:
- Thought the stuff about rugby, bullying, and masculinity was fairly spot on
- Not too sure what to take from the animal killing stuff, if she also thinks people shouldn't be expected to know the realities of where meat comes from? Or if she only included the anecdote to illustrate a time when she knew she wasn't supposed to have emotions?
- Was a bit iffy on the stuff about girls being told not to be girly as it starts to make generalisations about what is/isn't girly. Also, as a bit of a generalisation, NZ women seem to be more self reliant than those from some other nationalities, which I'm not sure is a bad thing?

Part 2:
- Had trouble relating to this as it didn't reflect the NZ I grew up in, however others comments on the article suggest this is a reality for many NZers (especially females) and so is obviously pretty gross and something that needs fixing.
- Thought the suggestion that these were problems exclusive to NZ is almost certainly BS. I imagine these opinions stem from not growing up/being fully immersed in these other cultures - ironically a similar ignorance of her NZ experience is likely to be what has driven a lot of the hate toward her articles.


She's written these articles in a way that is guaranteed to get under a lot of peoples skin, I assume this was intentional so to get more people to share/read....which imo is a good thing as although it might not actually be a true representation of all of New Zealand, it's still something really important to be aware of/talk about as it clearly does affect some people.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby arkie » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:36 pm

What a comment. Nothing like a bit of anecdata, and what a generous, progressive and modern assessment of working women! But for me it's all about that last sentence. 9/10 (-1 for not offering to 'fuck them right')

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby hiv-positive » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:07 pm

Great article - the comments sections have been hilarious and truly indicative of some of the retarded mindsets kiwis have.

I think a huge part of the problem is that your perspective on NZ is almost entirely based on which class you belong to. The working poor don't get to experience the idyllic kiwi life that the middle classes romanticise with their rose coloured glasses on and the genuinely rich just look down on everyone else and pretend all of the bad of society is self inflicted as they profit from exploiting the rest of us.

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby Dead Kid » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:41 pm

If br00tal is what it was a generation ago, it's probably not now. It's becoming the norm for dodgy shit to be called out on like this. With another generation hopefully it'll be prevented or at least dealt with better. The Louise Nicholas case was like a running commentary on our recent backwards ways.

Other aspects are in decline, but an impoverished 87% pure NZ is still paradise relative to a lot of places. Especially so-called paradises like the bell-end magnet known as Ibiza. NZers are generally quite friendly and not pointing guns at you (so far). And if you don't like people, you can be pleased about our subaverage population density. Our prime minister has a way to go before becoming a full-blown Stephen Harper ruining everything.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:54 pm

Dead Kid wrote:Ibut an impoverished 87% pure NZ is still paradise relative to a lot of places.


I think the problem is that the only thing that is keeping NZ "pure" is our tiny population, in all other regards we're doing fuck all to protect our environment.


Part 3: rugby-racism-and-homophobia

Thought this was spot on, although I think xeno/homo phobic attitudes have got a lot better since I was a kid, and certainly since Katherine was a kid - but that's not to say we don't have a loooong way to go.

Some of these attitudes are certainly not exclusive to NZ though, I've been pretty shocked by the hostility in Europe toward not only Chinese and refugees, but also to their own neighbours within Europe. In some ways I think the language we use in NZ has improved more than over here - eg referring to an Asians skin colour as yellow is acceptable.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby Red_switch » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:47 pm

While raising some important/interesting issues, she sure does her best to come across outrageously naively.
I think it's lint.

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby 9seconds » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:16 pm

didnt really notice her saying it was an exclusively NZ problem, just that we like to think we are a nice bunch, and we aint.

hiv-positive wrote:Great article - the comments sections have been hilarious and truly indicative of some of the retarded mindsets kiwis have.

I think a huge part of the problem is that your perspective on NZ is almost entirely based on which class you belong to. The working poor don't get to experience the idyllic kiwi life that the middle classes romanticise with their rose coloured glasses on and the genuinely rich just look down on everyone else and pretend all of the bad of society is self inflicted as they profit from exploiting the rest of us.


couldnt agree more

Dead Kid wrote:If br00tal is what it was a generation ago, it's probably not now. It's becoming the norm for dodgy shit to be called out on like this. With another generation hopefully it'll be prevented or at least dealt with better.


couldnt agree less.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:38 pm

9seconds wrote:didnt really notice her saying it was an exclusively NZ problem, just that we like to think we are a nice bunch, and we aint.


I guess the tone of all her articles so far have been to say that NZ sux, it's difficult to think about that without a comparison to other countries. However if her only point is that NZ isn't an objective utopia that we and/or the rest of the world thinks we are....then fair enough.

When ever people over here find out I'm from NZ they immediately tell me what an amazing place NZ (and why would I want to leave).....I find myself immediately jumping to the the defensive (why NZ ISN'T perfect), but then holding back as to not sound too neggy - so basically "yeah but nah"


9seconds wrote:
Dead Kid wrote:If br00tal is what it was a generation ago, it's probably not now. It's becoming the norm for dodgy shit to be called out on like this. With another generation hopefully it'll be prevented or at least dealt with better.


couldnt agree less.


You don't think that NZ has become less racist/homophobic over the last 50 years?
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby Red_switch » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:46 pm

People are still cocks. Maybe the goal posts have just shifted a bit.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby 9seconds » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:52 pm

its still going on, i didnt specify racism and homophobia, i was referring more to some of the other stuff, but frankly id rather pull my own teeth out than explain in this environment.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby hiv-positive » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:01 pm

Red_switch wrote:While raising some important/interesting issues, she sure does her best to come across outrageously naively.


There's a few telling comments in there, like the one about hiding in the library at lunchtime, that definitely suggest she's a certain personality type and definitely not cut out for provincial NZ.

PertHJ wrote:When ever people over here find out I'm from NZ they immediately tell me what an amazing place NZ (and why would I want to leave).....I find myself immediately jumping to the the defensive (why NZ ISN'T perfect), but then holding back as to not sound too neggy - so basically "yeah but nah"


I've had numerous similar conversations like this, especially with naive Euro backpacker types who don't really want to believe that there is an undercurrent of resentment and violence and all round grim cunts in the country.

PertHJ wrote:You don't think that NZ has become less racist/homophobic over the last 50 years?


I think we all want to believe that, but I think the truth is we were never quite as collectively racist and homophobic as we were made out to be and things like legalised civil unions have allowed the populace to simply go along with telling themselves we've changed. I know half my family certainly don't give a fuck about not tolerating the gays, and nobody is overtly racist but sure as shit they'll always comment on the Asians and if they have a token Maori friend it's because that Maori is middle class or it's through sports.

I think overall NZ is keen to be seen as a developed, forward thinking nation and we have certainly done a lot to present that to the world in recent years, but that really doesn't mean Kev in Taihape agrees with any of it.

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:14 pm

I don't doubt that a significant portion of the county is still bigoted AF, but surely a law change like civil unions don't get made into law without some change in collective thinking, and that changes like these lead to more progressive thinking.

hiv-positive wrote:
PertHJ wrote:When ever people over here find out I'm from NZ they immediately tell me what an amazing place NZ (and why would I want to leave).....I find myself immediately jumping to the the defensive (why NZ ISN'T perfect), but then holding back as to not sound too neggy - so basically "yeah but nah"


I've had numerous similar conversations like this, especially with naive Euro backpacker types who don't really want to believe that there is an undercurrent of resentment and violence and all round grim cunts in the country.


Yeah pretty much the same reaction I get. Although I was asked by a guy in Italy "do you have problems with the native people like the Australians do" and "Do people call Maoris by another name like Australians say Abo's" ......where to fucking start :explainittomelikeimfive:
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby Max » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:33 pm

Have we got to the point yet where strippers are considered skilled professional entertainers rather than sluts to be drunkenly groped at the after match function?

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby 9seconds » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:40 pm

PertHJ wrote:I don't doubt that a significant portion of the county is still bigoted AF, but surely a law change like civil unions don't get made into law without some change in collective thinking, and that changes like these lead to more progressive thinking.
why would you think that Pert?

i dont follow the logic, its like saying greenwashing leads to actual sound environmental policy - which it plainly doesnt
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby 9seconds » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:44 pm

:|
Last edited by 9seconds on Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:53 pm

9seconds wrote:
PertHJ wrote:I don't doubt that a significant portion of the county is still bigoted AF, but surely a law change like civil unions don't get made into law without some change in collective thinking, and that changes like these lead to more progressive thinking.
why would you think that Pert?

i dont follow the logic, its like saying greenwashing leads to actual sound environmental policy - which it plainly doesnt


When was the last time you heard that women shouldn't be able to vote?

Obviously law reform isn't the only way to obtain social change, but it is one action of many to normalise what was once socially taboo
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby 9seconds » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:04 pm

um? im sorry, but youre really skewing pretty wildly here.

anyway, i hear comments like that on a regular basis, theres two trafficlight/roundabout/spaghettio setups near here, they are pretty fucked and nobody likes them, theres a lot to complain about them, but the most frequent one is 'they were designed by a woman' as if that explains it all.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:15 pm

How am I skewing anything? We were talking about a law being passed that moves toward protecting the rights of people?

Yeah I'm sure people are just as sexist as they were a hundred years ago :roll:
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby 9seconds » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:42 pm

im sure we are talking about completely different things

i mean, we werent talking about 100 years ago were we?
we were talking about the 80's at the most.

things may have improved since then, but clearly, not as much as the average NZer wants to believe. :explainittomelikeimfive:
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby the croc » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:21 pm

hiv-positive wrote:I think a huge part of the problem is that your perspective on NZ is almost entirely based on which class you belong to. The working poor don't get to experience the idyllic kiwi life that the middle classes romanticise with their rose coloured glasses on and the genuinely rich just look down on everyone else and pretend all of the bad of society is self inflicted as they profit from exploiting the rest of us.


Most definitely. I thought I had some shit times growing up but now am older and got kids and seen some of the world I'm like holy fuck I had it so sweet.

I read a stat recently that the nuclear family is a reality for only 25% of families these days. So basically if you parents stay together and you don't have any half/step siblings you are an anomaly.

It really shits me people who think they are better than others for whatever reason. That Auckland Ya Ya Club is fucking abysmal.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby Red_switch » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:18 pm

hiv-positive wrote:
Red_switch wrote:While raising some important/interesting issues, she sure does her best to come across outrageously naively.


There's a few telling comments in there, like the one about hiding in the library at lunchtime, that definitely suggest she's a certain personality type and definitely not cut out for provincial NZ.

PertHJ wrote:When ever people over here find out I'm from NZ they immediately tell me what an amazing place NZ (and why would I want to leave).....I find myself immediately jumping to the the defensive (why NZ ISN'T perfect), but then holding back as to not sound too neggy - so basically "yeah but nah"


I've had numerous similar conversations like this, especially with naive Euro backpacker types who don't really want to believe that there is an undercurrent of resentment and violence and all round grim cunts in the country.

PertHJ wrote:You don't think that NZ has become less racist/homophobic over the last 50 years?


I think we all want to believe that, but I think the truth is we were never quite as collectively racist and homophobic as we were made out to be and things like legalised civil unions have allowed the populace to simply go along with telling themselves we've changed. I know half my family certainly don't give a fuck about not tolerating the gays, and nobody is overtly racist but sure as shit they'll always comment on the Asians and if they have a token Maori friend it's because that Maori is middle class or it's through sports.

I think overall NZ is keen to be seen as a developed, forward thinking nation and we have certainly done a lot to present that to the world in recent years, but that really doesn't mean Kev in Taihape agrees with any of it.



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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:13 am

9seconds wrote:im sure we are talking about completely different things

i mean, we werent talking about 100 years ago were we?
we were talking about the 80's at the most.

Things may have improved since then, but clearly, not as much as the average NZer wants to believe. :explainittomelikeimfive:


Well that specific tangent was in regards to social movements leading to law change, and law changes helping to alter the way groups are viewed within society. I think women getting the vote is a pretty good example of that irrespective of when it happened. Not to say that women's rights still aren't an issue, but they are a hell of a lot better than before they won the vote, and I'm sure giving them the vote helped future generations view the issue.

Gay rights is a much more recent issue, so homophobia is much more of a problem still. However I think since I was a kid views have changed, especially in urban areas, and with time these attitudes will gradually spread to rural communities.

Maybe things haven't improved as much as the average NZ want's to believe - I don't really know how much they have changed, or how much the average NZ believes? or how much things could/should have changed? What's the measure for that? The rest of the world?


No one here is suggesting that these social ills aren't a problem and need addressing. Everyone comments acknowledge this and say we need to keep improving shit. The only parts that anyone is disagreeing with is her insinuation that we are worse than the rest of the world and nothing has improved since she was a kid.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby 9seconds » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:02 am

i guess you dont read the comments then.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:43 pm

Fuck no
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby aerozol » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:54 pm

3/4 guys in NZ agree that 2/4 girls in NZ don't have it as bad as they say they do

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby mmmm....good crack » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:17 pm

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby PertHJ » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:41 am

mmmm....good crack wrote:http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/84256019/new-zealand-is-no-paradise-were-all-drunk

pt.3 nz is buch of drunks


^part 4

I kind of wonder what would happen if NZ adopted European alcohol laws - street drinking, low prices etc - would we just have mayhem for a year or so and then get on with it?

Not sure what she's talking about with increasing alcohol prices, does that really work? Or just Cripps the poor? And anyway they are already pretty fuckin' high for the specific reason she suggests they need to be....?
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby Dead Kid » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:33 am

PertHJ wrote:I kind of wonder what would happen if NZ adopted European alcohol laws - street drinking, low prices etc - would we just have mayhem for a year or so and then get on with it?

I think our mayhem comes from personality traits like recklessness and shamelessness, and has a lot more to do with upbringing than laws. Though it might help to shift taxes away from bars and encourage people to drink there in what's effectively a 'supervised' environment.
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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby hiv-positive » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:30 am

PertHJ wrote:I kind of wonder what would happen if NZ adopted European alcohol laws - street drinking, low prices etc - would we just have mayhem for a year or so and then get on with it?


Those laws are a reflection of their overall culture though. NZ wouldn't suddenly gain a sensible, adult approach to drinking if the prices dropped and you could drink in public.

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Re: Katherine Dolan's "why NZ is sux0rs" stuff articles

Postby Dixon Cider A.C. » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:51 pm

Probably the opposite actually


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