Student loan/allowance changes

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Red_switch
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Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Sun May 06, 2012 10:13 am

What the shit is Steven Joyce up to?

I guess an increase in the repayment rate for loans was inevitable, still, a flat rate seems a bit shit, and a 2% increase means a lot of people will now likely take a second look at kiwisaver... I think the greens are onto it when they suggest a graduated system for loan repayment rates, too sensible for the nats I guess.

The four year limit on allowances is retarded, I've got a few friends studying med who are gonna be seriously fucked around by that.

It would take some kind of very compelling development for me to do a PhD in NZ now, fuck this govt and their vocational university attitude.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby akaxo » Sun May 06, 2012 10:42 am

slowly but surely taking tertiary education out of the reach of the average new zealander because high levels of education and critical thinking skills don't fit the right's model for our society. we only need to be educated enough to work in their businesses and not so educated that we question anything they, as our rightful rulers, tell us.

hopefully it'll get changed back in a few years or so :?

also worth noting is our threshold for loan repayment is ~$19k to be paid back at 12%. aussie loans have a repayment threshold of ~$40k and a payment rate of 4%.

and yep more sensible practical policy ideas from the greens.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Sun May 06, 2012 1:01 pm

Basically, I imagine that Joyce's idea of university is somewhere that you go for three years (four if you're a bit slow or like to party), get a BCom, and slot into some mundane accounting/middle management job for a multi national corporate with a lively social club.

It wasn't that long ago that accounting and managment were things learned on the job, and maybe a year or three at polytech if you really got into it. The fact that shit like this accounts for such a large proportion of undergrad university students goes to show that most of society have completely lost sight of what uni should be about.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby akaxo » Sun May 06, 2012 1:12 pm

this article and some of the comments might make you feel a bit more positive about what people think http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/6 ... e-creative
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Sun May 06, 2012 1:27 pm

That's one of the best newspaper articles I've seen in ages, cheers.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sun May 06, 2012 2:13 pm

does this mean if youve had 4 years of student allowance you cant ever get it again? even if those years were before the law came in?
do they have to be 4 consecutive years or does it change things if you split the years up and shit like that?
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Sun May 06, 2012 2:16 pm

Not entirely sure man, and as I've never been on it, I haven't looked into it much. But yea a few people I know who are 2 or 3 years in with a shitload more to go are packing themselves, so it must be srs.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sun May 06, 2012 2:18 pm

ive had a half year i think, so i suppose ive got at least 3 and a half to go, probably do it at some stage too
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby akaxo » Sun May 06, 2012 2:20 pm

details won't be out until the budget.

currently one year of allowance isn't 52 weeks, it's 40 or something i think as it's the number of weeks in the academic year. so if like me you did some papers over the summer you use over a years allowance in one year and then find out you've run out at some random time during the term.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby [Tim] » Sun May 06, 2012 2:30 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:does this mean if youve had 4 years of student allowance you cant ever get it again?


I believe so. That's how it works now anyway with the current limit.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sun May 06, 2012 2:39 pm

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby [Tim] » Sun May 06, 2012 2:51 pm

J wrote:how do you even get a student allowance as an adult? shit changes alot in 12 years i guess.


I got mine because I was over 25. Had to borrow $150 a week before then so my loan is quite massive because of that.

I learnt some interesting shit at uni and got some practical stuff under my belt at polytech but I'm in the mindset now that I wish I hadn't bothered because of the debt I'm in now.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Sun May 06, 2012 3:07 pm

akaxo wrote:details won't be out until the budget.

currently one year of allowance isn't 52 weeks, it's 40 or something i think as it's the number of weeks in the academic year. so if like me you did some papers over the summer you use over a years allowance in one year and then find out you've run out at some random time during the term.


The way studylink works out how long you've been studying is a complete fucking mystery to everyone as far as I could tell when they told me in March last year that I had finished my Masters, and stopped paying my living costs (loan). That was really fucking shit, and it took all kinds of bs paper work and going through different people at uni to get it sorted out. Those people kept telling me it happens all the time, and they don't know why, but they were able to sort it out so I was able to pay rent for the final three months of my thesis.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby arkie » Sun May 06, 2012 3:10 pm

J wrote:seems weird to expect free money that you never have to pay back? isnt it?

as for repayments, arn't we talking $3-$10 per week increase max ? and thats only once you have a job/income, so you have the money.


It is pretty ridiculous to expect free money yes, so a student loan scheme is necessary,
just think that the repayment schedule kicks in too early (as akaxo mentioned it is ~$19k).

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Marrow » Sun May 06, 2012 3:18 pm

Allowances shouldn't exist. Loans should, but they shouldn't be so anal about them.
Pretty irritating reading this thread right after reading http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6867602/Key-to-lock-in-PMs-perks
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Sun May 06, 2012 3:21 pm

J wrote:i did a course when i was 16 and had to pay my $150 a week back as well as course fees/costs. how do you even get a student allowance as an adult? shit changes alot in 12 years i guess.


If you are under 24, the student allowance is means tested, so if your parents earn enough money to put you through high school they are expected to put you through uni too, which for most people means you need to borrow living costs to pay rent/eat etc. Once you turn 24 you magically become independent and qualify for the allowance, so you don't have to pay it back, and you'll probably get a bit more money than those suckers who are borrowing.

seems weird to expect free money that you never have to pay back? isnt it?

Should beneficiaries be indebted to the govt also? I personally think that the allowance needs to either be 100% universal, or non-existent. My parents might earn more than others, but I still put myself through uni on the bones of my ass. If repayments were well managed and interest free then I could see the merit in not having the allowance, or limiting it severely.

On the other hand, if the govt really wants to save money (and not get off-side with the electorate) they really should clamp down on the shitload of people/families that use dodgy trusts/companies to hide parental income, which qualifies their kids for the allowance. I know a lot of people whose parents run shit like this, putting the kids through uni, and enabling them to get the allowance for some free drinking money. Cuntiness in the extreme. Usually such people are the very people who love to hate dole bludgers. It saddens me that they can't see the irony of the situation.

as for repayments, arn't we talking $3-$10 per week increase max ? and thats only once you have a job/income, so you have the money.

Every little bit counts eh. Especially when you get of uni, broke as shit, and want to be able to start saving. I reckon that for a lot of people that difference could be the difference between joining and not joining kiwisaver. Gotta remember too, most grads (despite their best intentions) are on fuck all straight out of uni (30 - 35k in a lot of sectors) but are effectively being taxed at a way higher rate once loan repayments are factored in.

what am i missing

:explainittomelikeimfive:

Then there's all sorts of other shit, like the fact that the majority of tertiary educated MPs didn't have to pay tuition fees at all, and many were paid to go to uni. Now we pay for our education, to fund their retirement.

The right also have a really fucked up view of the role/place of universities in society in general, with a general desire to see them operate as corporate vocational training providers. It's fucked up. So much of the shit the corporate world prides itself on shouldn't even be taught in universities, and belongs in polytech if anywhere. I reckon the fact that the finance and accounting depts at Otago had to be merged due to mismanagement and running at a huge loss while being subsidised by other depts highlights the whole stupid situation nicely.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby akaxo » Sun May 06, 2012 3:32 pm

Marrow wrote:Pretty irritating reading this thread right after reading http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6867602/Key-to-lock-in-PMs-perks
ha yeah like those cunts need tens of thousands per year extra for the rest of their lives just for being pm. lange's widow had some good stuff to say on it in there. on a bright note that article contains the best indication yet i've seen that key will be resigning before the next election. he had a bit to do with that bill and there's lifelong perks for ex-prime ministers who have served for five or more years, not two terms as would be the more logical time frame imo.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Tartanperil » Sun May 06, 2012 11:07 pm

arkie wrote:It is pretty ridiculous to expect free money...


Why is it ridiculous?

Tertiary education was fully free up until 1989.

The only reason it's not now is so mega wealthy don't have to pay as much tax as they used to.

All students are asking for is the equivalent to the dole to pay for rent and food.

Fuck living in a Nazi state where only the rich have access to education.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby skeetnigguh » Mon May 07, 2012 9:48 am

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby aerozol » Mon May 07, 2012 9:59 am

To me it makes no sense that people on the dole get more money than those studying.
The reason we 'give' students money is because a country with skilled workers is a better off country than one without them (maybe National doesn't see it that way though). It's an investment, and it's not throwing money away. Just because people see some papers they personally think are 'useless', or see students as just drinking all the time doesn't mean they wont be moaning like crazy when we have to get more skilled immigrants (than we already have to, which is a lot) to fill 'our' high paying jobs, because studying has become even more shit than it already is.

Anyway, regardless of your feelings on free money, everybody should agree that shitting all over people who want to actually put in the sh*t ton ton of work to become doctors or other useful people, just because it takes longer, is retarded.
And lowering the income threshold isn't exactly going to help what is probably a (the?) major problem, which is people fucking off to countries with better wages who seem to actually enjoy having highly skilled workers, and not paying the govt. back at all. Which I don't see this exactly helping with.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby [Tim] » Mon May 07, 2012 10:57 am

Paying back a few extra cents on the dollar is hardly a big drama it's not like they are expecting the total loan to be repaid in 7 days or something. Comparing Australia's threshold for repayments is just stupid because they are in more of a position to do that (i.e bigger and richer).

aerozol wrote:To me it makes no sense that people on the dole get more money than those studying.


What?

I got exactly the same amount of money for both.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby xsfat » Mon May 07, 2012 1:35 pm

The comparison of how it is today compared to the 'good ol days' is tiresome. We now have significantly more students enrolling.
Any need in the past to steer more students towards a path of tertiary education is clearly not a requirement anymore (perhaps with some exceptions).

In my view, the bigger issue is the quality and standing of our tertiary studies. The funding allocation mechanisms do not adequately support research or quality.
If National is attempting to limit its costs, I would have preferred an approach that means greater limits to the number of student enrolment based on more stringent merit and motivation criteria.
Also funding should be more targeted for different majors/degrees etc, rather than across-the-board.

My firm view is student loan should not be interest-free and I'm still dissappointed that National continues to tip-toe around a giant expensive elephant in a one-size-fit-all manner. The 4-year limit will probably impact on those studying medical degrees etc, which defintely needs addressing.
Last edited by xsfat on Mon May 07, 2012 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Tartanperil » Mon May 07, 2012 1:40 pm

J wrote:
Tartanperil wrote:Fuck living in a Nazi state where only the rich have access to education.


a nazi state because you are being asked to pay back money you borrow ? wtf?

thats just being overly dramatic for no reason.


Not at all.

Firstly I'm not suggesting education should be free per se - but it should be free of economic barriers. That is, everyone gets a crack at appropriate tertiary study if needed, and then pays that back through progressive taxes. This worked fine in the '70s and '80s. And it means that people who will best make doctors will have a chance to do so (instead of just the people who could best afford to study medicine).

And no I don't think that it's overreacting to calling a system that aims to exclude poor people from participation in higher education, Nazi or at least fascist in intent.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby dustbinflowers » Mon May 07, 2012 1:43 pm

Agreed. What he said
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Tartanperil » Mon May 07, 2012 1:46 pm

xsfat wrote:The comparison of how it is today compared to the 'good ol days' is tiresome. We now have significantly more students enrolling.

Oh please, you've conveniently also forgetting that far less tax is paid on incomes over $100,000 than it used to be. That's why cuts need to be made.

Iirc, a half percent tax-increase on income over $80,000 (or something similar) would fully fund tertiary education.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Tartanperil » Mon May 07, 2012 1:50 pm

[Tim] wrote:
aerozol wrote:To me it makes no sense that people on the dole get more money than those studying.

What?

I got exactly the same amount of money for both.

It depends on your circumstances.

I get a constant stream of people who have come to 'Tech off the dole and find they get less as a student. Many of these people get so much less they are forced to drop out of study because they can't afford to live. That's pretty sad imho.

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby xsfat » Mon May 07, 2012 1:58 pm

Tartan - We agree students, rich or poor, should "get a crack at appropriate tertiary study". I disagree that "everyone gets a crack".
Even if taxation intake was increased, I would still advocate for the money to be spent on other things. That's my view.

On a slight tangent, I see that Harvard and MIT are now making many of their courses free online.
This is realistically possible for more and more papers (history, statistics, philosophy etc), coupled perhaps with face-to-face tutorials.
The traditional class-room delivery surely needs to innovate and change to better engage the modern generation, especially those that have other life commitments!

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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Mon May 07, 2012 2:17 pm

xsfat wrote:Tartan - We agree students, rich or poor, should "get a crack at appropriate tertiary study". I disagree that "everyone gets a crack".
Even if taxation intake was increased, I would still advocate for the money to be spent on other things. That's my view.

If you can get into uni, and pass, then you shouldn't be put in a position where studying puts you in a shitty financial situation.

On a slight tangent, I see that Harvard and MIT are now making many of their courses free online.
This is realistically possible for more and more papers (history, statistics, philosophy etc), coupled perhaps with face-to-face tutorials.
The traditional class-room delivery surely needs to innovate and change to better engage the modern generation, especially those that have other life commitments!

They offer select courses available free online, for no credit, essentially on an interest basis. These are basically public outreach mechanisms, provided by field leading academics, and amounts to making videos of open lectures available online. Public outreach is important in uni's here (we made a super lame video recently to that effect), but even more so in the states, where it is a significant condition of grant awards and the often tied into the tenure system.

Also, both Harvad and MIT have multi-billion us dollar endowments - they don't have to battle with the sorts of financial pressures that nz institutions so.

Those that have other life commitments? FFS, if you are studying full time, and take it seriously and want to be taken seriously then study should be your primary commitment. Even if part time, if you're there, you might as well be there. You really sound like someone who studied law there, and I am sorry that many law departments are terribly archaic.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Red_switch » Mon May 07, 2012 2:24 pm

xsfat wrote:The comparison of how it is today compared to the 'good ol days' is tiresome. We now have significantly more students enrolling.


The boom in student numbers happened long after fees were introduced, and has more to do with university being treated as a vocational institution than financial factors imo.

Any need in the past to steer more students towards a path of tertiary education is clearly not a requirement anymore (perhaps with some exceptions).

That was never the intention with tuition fee-free tertiary education.

In my view, the bigger issue is the quality and standing of our tertiary studies. The funding allocation mechanisms do not adequately support research or quality.

This is happening, slowly but surely.

If National is attempting to limit its costs, I would have preferred an approach that means greater limits to the number of student enrolment based on more stringent merit and motivation criteria.

I think the entry requirements could be more robust for sure, it's pretty shit trying to mark undergrad work when you can't actually comprehend what they have written on the page.

Also funding should be more targeted for different majors/degrees etc, rather than across-the-board.

National have said they want to do this, based on industry demand, I think it's fucking retarded, and dangerous, and just points toward the vocational institute model.

My firm view is student loan should not be interest-free and I'm still dissappointed that National continues to tip-toe around a giant expensive elephant in a one-size-fit-all manner. The 4-year limit will probably impact on those studying medical degrees etc, which defintely needs addressing.

That's the thing, all this approach does in penalise people who are working hard in areas that are hugely important to society. It's ludicrously short sighted.

Imo, they really need to address the abuse of the allowance scheme by well off families. But they won't, because those families provide key votes.
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Re: Student loan/allowance changes

Postby Tartanperil » Mon May 07, 2012 4:32 pm

J wrote:if there was no student loan scheme, i can understand that would have the effect of poor people not being able to go to uni, i just don't see how stopping giving away free money after 4 years would do it too.

I disagree. I'm poor and am in the process of being made redundant from an industry that's effectively been closed down so will need retraining soon, but even with loans I can't afford the fees and more debt (especially if there's a chance National bring back interest as they're really itching to do).

There's a reasonable chance I'll end up on the dole getting "free" money, when I'd rather be studying (which is better for both myself and for society). That's just fucked.


PS - it's not "free" money btw, my parents and grand parents paid taxes with the expectation their children would get free education.


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