London police issued with hollow point bullets

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London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Dead Kid » Thu May 12, 2011 9:47 am

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... tanders.do
All Met police marksmen are to be issued with hollow point "dum dum" bullets similar to those used to kill the innocent Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes.

Scotland Yard announced that the ammunition was being issued as standard to its firearms officers "in a commitment to making London safer."

Police experts say there is less risk of injuries to innocent parties and bystanders because regular ammunition passes straight through the body, while hollow point ammunition expands and stops when it hits the target.

The so-called "dum dum" bullets were used by police marksman when they shot 27-year-old Mr de Menezes at Stockwell underground station in 2005. Firearms officers believed they were confronting a suicide bomber about to detonate a device and fired seven bullets into his head.

Police said the new ammunition was being introduced today after 12 weeks of testing.
The bullets are used by U.S. air marshals because they kill instantly and do not pass through an aircraft fuselage after hitting a target, unlike conventional bullets.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby arkie » Thu May 12, 2011 9:53 am

Justification seems valid. In crowded situation like a tube station, it seems fair enough to attempt to avoid ricochets etc.

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby crain » Thu May 12, 2011 11:48 am

everyone the police shoot at seems to die anyways so giving then a more lethal device to do so is pretty meh.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby PertHJ » Thu May 12, 2011 12:49 pm

arkie wrote:Justification seems valid. In crowded situation like a tube station, it seems fair enough to attempt to avoid ricochets etc.


What about the innocent bystander that will DEFINITELY die now due to the policeman's aim being a bit off?
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby MuscleMan » Thu May 12, 2011 4:42 pm

The hollow point kind of turns whatever organic target it hits to soup, from shattering on/inside the target. This will remove any chance of wayward shots or penetrating shots ricocheting into a 3rd party. If a wayward shot from a normal round hit someone, they are likely fucked too (as it would still ruin any vital organs it hit).

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby PertHJ » Thu May 12, 2011 5:01 pm

steve f wrote:If a wayward shot from a normal round hit someone, they are likely fucked too (as it would still ruin any vital organs it hit).


Depends where it went in really, wouldn't it?



If a gun is fired by the police, is it always fired to kill? if not...will they have a choice of bullet?
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby arkie » Thu May 12, 2011 5:04 pm

PertHJ wrote:What about the innocent bystander that will DEFINITELY die now due to the policeman's aim being a bit off?


How I see it, it is better to reduce the likelihood of ricochets or shots going through the target and hitting a bystander by accident, because if a cop (note it said marksmen would be issued with hollow points) misses and fucks up a innocent 3rd party he will be culpable because his aim was wrong.

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby MuscleMan » Thu May 12, 2011 5:07 pm

PertHJ wrote:
steve f wrote:If a wayward shot from a normal round hit someone, they are likely fucked too (as it would still ruin any vital organs it hit).


Depends where it went in really, wouldn't it?



If a gun is fired by the police, is it always fired to kill? if not...will they have a choice of bullet?


As far as I'm aware they aim for the torso or the head depending on situations. If they miss the target, it wouldn't necessarily hit someone else's chest/head. The hollow point would fuck someone pretty bad if it missed completely, but if it was a glancing wound the round itself would lose a fuckton of its kinetic energy as it would of been expended while the round expanded and shattered.

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Dixon Cider A.C. » Thu May 12, 2011 5:24 pm

wouldn't have made any difference to my man Halatau Naitoko

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby nails » Thu May 12, 2011 6:10 pm

So it would be a situational thing right? Say you were taking out someone with a hostage, a hollow point would do really well
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Marrow » Thu May 12, 2011 6:26 pm

If you're using a lethal weapon, you're trying to kill them. I think shooting to wound is even against the Geneva Convention?
Makes sense to try and minimise collateral damage.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Phlegethon » Thu May 12, 2011 6:29 pm

Hollow points work real mean with a 9mm pistol, unless youre shooting at something with armour like a deathclaw in which case you have to change to armour piecing

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby crain » Thu May 12, 2011 9:50 pm

thing is, police stuff ends up in the hands of the public a lot more than realised. hate to think of cunts running round with hydro-shocks just cause the local maggots can't manage to keep hold of their shit.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby nails » Thu May 12, 2011 10:43 pm

crain wrote:thing is, police stuff ends up in the hands of the public a lot more than realised. hate to think of cunts running round with hydro-shocks just cause the local maggots can't manage to keep hold of their shit.



Got a source? I'd be interested to read those stats
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby kimura » Fri May 13, 2011 11:13 am

Yep FTP etc,

Thing is, disliking the police and so forth aside. They don't want to kill innocent bystanders - it's not good for their image. I suppose just like the organised crime groups try to keep a low profile in the same sense, so accordingly they probably did some extensive testing on this.

I havn't heard about police gears being stolen, but can imagine it being a pretty attractive option while constable sam leaves his patrol car unattended..

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby MuscleMan » Fri May 13, 2011 11:59 am

Hydro Shok hollowpoints are available to the public through FAC anyway?

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Tartanperil » Fri May 13, 2011 4:39 pm

arkie wrote:
PertHJ wrote:What about the innocent bystander that will DEFINITELY die now due to the policeman's aim being a bit off?


How I see it, it is better to reduce the likelihood of ricochets or shots going through the target and hitting a bystander by accident, because if a cop (note it said marksmen would be issued with hollow points) misses and fucks up a innocent 3rd party he will be culpable because his aim was wrong.


Two problems there:

Firstly I'd rather explain to someone wrongly shot why they were injured, rather than explaining to them why they're dead. :roll:

Secondly, I'm imagine than a lot more people are hit by miss-aimed police bullets than by police bullets passing through the intended target.

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby arkie » Fri May 13, 2011 5:16 pm

Tartanperil wrote: I imagine than a lot more people are hit by miss-aimed police bullets than by police bullets passing through the intended target


Okay, imagine away.

Original post wrote:...Police experts say there is less risk of injuries to innocent parties and bystanders because regular ammunition passes straight through the body, while hollow point ammunition expands and stops when it hits the target...

...The bullets are used by U.S. air marshals because they kill instantly and do not pass through an aircraft fuselage after hitting a target, unlike conventional bullets.

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby nails » Sat May 14, 2011 12:42 am

They wouldn't use them every time they fired their gun, I think it would be more like when they needed to shoot to kill, rather than just immobilise
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Marrow » Sat May 14, 2011 10:27 am

pretty sure they carry non-lethal weapons as well. This just gives them something to escalate to that won't punch straight through the target and into the old lady behind him.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Phlegethon » Sat May 14, 2011 2:35 pm

nails wrote:They wouldn't use them every time they fired their gun, I think it would be more like when they needed to shoot to kill, rather than just immobilise


i dont know if the average cop on the street would have time to distinguish when its needed, then load the appropriate bullet into their clip before firing.

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Tartanperil » Sat May 14, 2011 2:57 pm

arkie wrote:
Tartanperil wrote: I imagine than a lot more people are hit by miss-aimed police bullets than by police bullets passing through the intended target


Okay, imagine away.

Original post wrote:...Police experts say there is less risk of injuries to innocent parties and bystanders because regular ammunition passes straight through the body, while hollow point ammunition expands and stops when it hits the target...

...The bullets are used by U.S. air marshals because they kill instantly and do not pass through an aircraft fuselage after hitting a target, unlike conventional bullets.


Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear:

I'd imagine more innocent bystanders are shot by police bullets that are mis-aimed rather than police bullets that pass through their target - eg 1 person a year is hit by a bullet passing through compared to 10 people hit by mis-aimed bullets. Thus issuing hollow-points is potentially stupid because the although the 1 person will not be killed by the passing through bullet the 10 people hit by mis-aims are much more likely to be dead than with normal bullets.

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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby geetar_man » Sun May 15, 2011 6:06 am

Phlegethon wrote:
nails wrote:They wouldn't use them every time they fired their gun, I think it would be more like when they needed to shoot to kill, rather than just immobilise


i dont know if the average cop on the street would have time to distinguish when its needed, then load the appropriate bullet into their clip before firing.



Not unless they get switch ammo buttons to go with their upgrade.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu May 19, 2011 12:07 am

i suppose it hasnt occurred to you geniuses that the last person the london police killed with those bullets was an innocent bystander, thats who they were aiming at.

anyone who supports this is both stupid and a piece of shit.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Marrow » Thu May 19, 2011 6:53 am

Implying they knew they were innocent when they shot at them?
I don't know the full story, but that sounds like a long shot (NPI).
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu May 19, 2011 7:58 am

no, implying they didnt know and didnt consider it important that he was innocent, wtf man?

when did punkas get so right wing?
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby PertHJ » Thu May 19, 2011 8:10 am

Marrow wrote:Implying they knew they were innocent when they shot at them?
I don't know the full story, but that sounds like a long shot (NPI).


In this case the dude died (right?), but with regular bullets it seems they/someone else would have more chance of survival than if they were shot with hollow points.

Would be interesting to see the stats on Tartanperil's question - how many bullets miss the target (and hit someone else) vs enter and exit target (and hit someone else). I too suspect the former would be higher.

Also as Phlegethon said, if they do have the choice between the two ammunition, fucked if I'd trust the pigs to get it right.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu May 19, 2011 9:17 am

its not that common for a bullet to go thru somebody and hit, let alone kill someone else.
most fatal police shootings occur when the 'suspect' is lying on the ground anyway.

i cant believe people are actually in favour of this.
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby nails » Thu May 19, 2011 11:45 am

PertHJ wrote:In this case the dude died (right?), but with regular bullets it seems they/someone else would have more chance of survival than if they were shot with hollow points.



Pretty sure its the other way around, hollow points fuck you up man.


Fiction & Falsehood wrote:most fatal police shootings occur when the 'suspect' is lying on the ground anyway.


I want to see where you get this kind of information from. Sounds like a load of shit to be honest
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Re: London police issued with hollow point bullets

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu May 19, 2011 11:59 am

:roll: dumbass
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