'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby YULE » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:02 am

Fuck i hate this country at times

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby MuscleMan » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:36 am

YULE wrote:Fuck i hate this country at times

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby akaxo » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:13 am

BigNanaJez wrote:Who else thinks National will try and change the bill of rights?
well funnily enough in the same speech that xsfat quoted simon power said repeatedly it was time to review and the refine the bill of rights act, so i'd say you're bang on there.

for example the speech, which was at the symposium to celebrate 20 years since the act became law, ends with
I believe it's something that we can continue to refine, and I believe I have identified some of those areas today.

I look forward to the developments that the next 20 years will bring.

Thank you.


http://www.national.org.nz/Article.aspx?ArticleID=34537
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby General Mutante » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:36 am

Fucking fat, smug, high handed cunt.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:52 pm

Jesus guys. It must suck to be so anti all the time.

Maybe these changes are a good idea?
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:57 pm

I mean you're all worried because the changes necessitate changes to the bill of rights act. As if the bill of rights are somehow sacrosanct. But that sort of thinking is why the US will never have effective gun control.

A lot of countries have perfectly functional justice systems WITHOUT juries at all.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Craig_Bastard » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:13 pm

just like China?
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby akaxo » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:14 pm

yeah a lot of countries have pretty shoddy judicial systems without juries too :wink:

there's nothing wrong with changes being made to legislation per se, even to the bill of rights. but when the changes could diminish rather than uphold citizen's rights i'd have problems with it. and i suspect that would be the side that any changes the current govt would make would be likely to be on. either way any changes to the bill of rights should be carefully considered and not rushed.

an entrenched bill of rights that parliament can't ignore and over ride in legislation any old time it feels like would be a good thing though imo. it could mean, for example, that any changes would require more than a simple majority to occur which would prevent one party altering it to suit it's own agenda etc etc.

but this is meant to be about jury trials and to be honest i'm not quite sure where i stand on jury trials, i can see perfectly valid reasons to get rid of them completely, and also for keeping it as it is. it's a tricky issue.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:22 pm

Craig fuckin' Gunn wrote:just like China?


Well put it this way: in FRANCE you will only have a jury trial if the offence is punishable by more than 10 years in prison.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby arkie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:30 pm

I am anti significant changes to laws, made without public consultation, that the legal society and the law commission both have major issues with.

Not all the time, so, it doesn't suck.

Fearful_Jesuit wrote:A lot of countries have perfectly functional justice systems WITHOUT juries at all.


I assume you mean japan and france.

japan reintroduced citizen involvement in the judicial system in 2004 with the addition of a lay-judge to their 12 judge panels, this has led to a rise in the number of accquitals, moving away from their almost 100% conviction rates.

Significantly Japan and France both use a similar system of prosecution and defense as in the US. We, however, have our police actually initiating and driving the prosecution of the cases. I would be more comfortable with these proposed changes to the judicial system if this was one of the things that was addressed. Police should be collectors of evidence and suspects and we should have a separate organization specialised in prosecuting, that is handed the evidence and the police involvment is over. It is my opinion that a great number of cases that are currently brought before the courts by the police, would not be, had they been assessed by some kind of district attorney-type arrangement. And Simon Power is worried about efficiency in the legal system? He seems more intent, as it has been mentioned, to dilute the ideals behind our current system so much that it no longer stands for justice but merely accelerated processing for inevitable imprisonment.

but hey, maybe these changes are a good idea, eh?

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:31 pm

akaxo wrote:yeah a lot of countries have pretty shoddy judicial systems without juries too :wink:

there's nothing wrong with changes being made to legislation per se, even to the bill of rights. but when the changes could diminish rather than uphold citizen's rights i'd have problems with it. and i suspect that would be the side that any changes the current govt would make would be likely to be on. either way any changes to the bill of rights should be carefully considered and not rushed.

an entrenched bill of rights that parliament can't ignore and over ride in legislation any old time it feels like would be a good thing though imo. it could mean, for example, that any changes would require more than a simple majority to occur which would prevent one party altering it to suit it's own agenda etc etc.

but this is meant to be about jury trials and to be honest i'm not quite sure where i stand on jury trials, i can see perfectly valid reasons to get rid of them completely, and also for keeping it as it is. it's a tricky issue.


I don't disagree with you. Obviously it is something that has to be carefully considered, which is why it is reassuring to see that Labour has thus far supported the changes in principle.

My opinion on juries is that they're unnecessary for minor crimes, and out of their depth for major or complicated crimes. But in some cases they seem indispensable..
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:36 pm

arkie wrote:I am anti significant changes to laws, made without public consultation, that the legal society and the law commission both have major issues with.

Not all the time, so, it doesn't suck.

Fearful_Jesuit wrote:A lot of countries have perfectly functional justice systems WITHOUT juries at all.


I assume you mean japan and france.

japan reintroduced citizen involvement in the judicial system in 2004 with the addition of a lay-judge to their 12 judge panels, this has led to a rise in the number of accquitals, moving away from their almost 100% conviction rates.

Significantly Japan and France both use a similar system of prosecution and defense as in the US. We, however, have our police actually initiating and driving the prosecution of the cases. I would be more comfortable with these proposed changes to the judicial system if this was one of the things that was addressed. Police should be collectors of evidence and suspects and we should have a separate organization specialised in prosecuting, that is handed the evidence and the police involvment is over. It is my opinion that a great number of cases that are currently brought before the courts by the police, would not be, had they been assessed by some kind of district attorney-type arrangement. And Simon Power is worried about efficiency in the legal system? He seems more intent, as it has been mentioned, to dilute the ideals behind our current system so much that it no longer stands for justice but merely accelerated processing for inevitable imprisonment.

but hey, maybe these changes are a good idea, eh?


There are a lot more countries than the two you mention.

I don't know anything about the Japanese system, but the flip side of what I think you're suggesting is that the reintroduction of citizen involvement increased acquittals because the citizenry doesn't have the knowledge or confidence to return as many convictions.

If the involvement of the citizenry means that more rapists get off because 'well.. maybe she was being provocative' then yes the changes ARE a good idea.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby arkie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:46 pm

it is reassuring to see that Labour has thus far supported the changes in principle


Red or blue, it makes little difference.

Choose a better colour. Any other colour.

the flip side of what I think you're suggesting is that the reintroduction of citizen involvement increased acquittals because the citizenry doesn't have the knowledge or confidence to return as many convictions.


no, i would disagree.

If the involvement of the citizenry means that more rapists get off because 'well.. maybe she was being provocative' then yes the changes ARE a good idea.


Judges are just that, Judges. Even in a jury-less system, there is accusations and defences and a burden of proof. This is battled out by barristers or the accused themselves. The judge just decides who presented a case that stood up to the burden of proof and decides what to do about it.

Also, not sure that the public / citizenry are generally onside with accused rapists, but hey.

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:00 pm

Well I'm just saying..

Cos when you refer to a 100% conviction rate it sounds like a terrible thing. But is it? Would not a properly functioning justice system, where the authorities only charged people they knew were demonstrably guilty, always have a 100% conviction rate?

Now I'm not saying that the Japanese authorities are that good, but if they were, then an increase in acquittals would mean that at least some are not just.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby arkie » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:25 pm

yeah, i was just sayin' too.

Yes, 100% conviction rate seems like a good thing, especially for politicians campaign sloagans, but after 60 odd years of judge panel trials, they decided to involve the public again so there may have been a reasoning that we aren't aware of. Also, like I said, Japan has a prosecution department that decides whether or not to take a case to trial upon being presented the evidence and the suspect by the police. This is significant because in this country our police prosecute, they make sure they look good in figures for statsnz, as in they have a vested interest in gaining a conviction. This can and has led to evidence tampering, unlawful techniques etc. etc. In a system like Japan, the police have good stats if they respond to the report of a crime, collect all evidence, and catch the suspect, they don't have to worry whether they are actually guilty or whatever, it is up to the public prosecutor to gain a conviction. Anyway I think we're both missing each others points and have got a bit stuck on the jury aspect of this proposed bill.

edit:areN'T

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Fearful_Jesuit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:34 pm

I'd support an independent office for prosecution, but in a country where we have a national police force, which is essentially a government entity, the difference between police prosecution and independent prosecution may really only be superficial.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby akaxo » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:05 pm

whilst i'd tend to not be in favour of removing the right to choose jury trials for some accused what i find of more concern is introducing the possibility of trials going ahead without the presence of the accused. hardly going to be helpful in ensuring fair trials which is far far more important than quick trials.
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby xSUSPECTx » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:27 pm

i find this all very sickening, but unsurprising, and frankly, whats the point complaining, protesting, or venturing opinion?
nobody gives a fuck, nothing we say or do will change anything, im quite happy for this country to cripple itself, lets put more people in jail, so that we will have more crime on the street, so that we can pass harsher laws, so we can introduce more totalitarian rules, so our leaders can make a greater profit, so the pathetic left and right wing losers can realise whats really up, maybe then we can see some changes for the positive, but i fuckin doubt it.
Carly Ngarotata-Simon wrote:U misd two commas u illiterate fuk. It should read...mainstream, whilst at the same time, ... Who da dumb cunt now. Im bilingual. I can txt speak n also write in 'proper' english havin bn a legal secretary 4 13 years. So im actualy fukn streams ahead in inteligence ova u. Plus i hav a life! I dnt waste my time typing evry leta out cos i have a life! Dum ass. Peace, im out. Hahahahaha

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Skoll » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:45 pm

"Put not your hope in governments".

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby anthony » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:05 pm

xSUSPECTx wrote:i find this all very sickening, but unsurprising, and frankly, whats the point complaining, protesting, or venturing opinion?
nobody gives a fuck, nothing we say or do will change anything, im quite happy for this country to cripple itself, lets put more people in jail, so that we will have more crime on the street, so that we can pass harsher laws, so we can introduce more totalitarian rules, so our leaders can make a greater profit, so the pathetic left and right wing losers can realise whats really up, maybe then we can see some changes for the positive, but i fuckin doubt it.



while the majority of people do not give a fuck ,it is still worth the few that do to speak out and protest or whatever. The search and surviellance bill was at least modified ,due to the fact that those that give a shit sent in submissions ,protested etc.
This government and previous governments are fucked we still must speak out and challenge .

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby anthony » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:05 pm

xSUSPECTx wrote:i find this all very sickening, but unsurprising, and frankly, whats the point complaining, protesting, or venturing opinion?
nobody gives a fuck, nothing we say or do will change anything, im quite happy for this country to cripple itself, lets put more people in jail, so that we will have more crime on the street, so that we can pass harsher laws, so we can introduce more totalitarian rules, so our leaders can make a greater profit, so the pathetic left and right wing losers can realise whats really up, maybe then we can see some changes for the positive, but i fuckin doubt it.



while the majority of people do not give a fuck ,it is still worth the few that do to speak out and protest or whatever. The search and surviellance bill was at least modified ,due to the fact that those that give a shit sent in submissions ,protested etc.
This government and previous governments are fucked we still must speak out and challenge .

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby xSUSPECTx » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:07 pm

yeh whatever, modified was it, can you elaborate on that?
Carly Ngarotata-Simon wrote:U misd two commas u illiterate fuk. It should read...mainstream, whilst at the same time, ... Who da dumb cunt now. Im bilingual. I can txt speak n also write in 'proper' english havin bn a legal secretary 4 13 years. So im actualy fukn streams ahead in inteligence ova u. Plus i hav a life! I dnt waste my time typing evry leta out cos i have a life! Dum ass. Peace, im out. Hahahahaha

Spots2012 wrote:do animal rights activists vehemently oppose Maori eating pigs etc, or are they willing to let that one slide?

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby Red_switch » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:08 pm

wanna grab a thickshake sometime?
I think it's lint.

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby anthony » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:13 pm

"yeh whatever"

your just as fucked as the people you hate

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby arkie » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:14 pm

anthony wrote:"yeh whatever"


you're doing it wrong

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby xSUSPECTx » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:36 pm

anthony wrote:"yeh whatever"

your just as fucked as the people you hate

you mean you?

im probably a lot more fucked actually.
Carly Ngarotata-Simon wrote:U misd two commas u illiterate fuk. It should read...mainstream, whilst at the same time, ... Who da dumb cunt now. Im bilingual. I can txt speak n also write in 'proper' english havin bn a legal secretary 4 13 years. So im actualy fukn streams ahead in inteligence ova u. Plus i hav a life! I dnt waste my time typing evry leta out cos i have a life! Dum ass. Peace, im out. Hahahahaha

Spots2012 wrote:do animal rights activists vehemently oppose Maori eating pigs etc, or are they willing to let that one slide?

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby electrifier » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:21 am

does this mean that they are gonna boost prison populations?
i thought it might be just like the whole acc thing. just getting it ready for privatisation or setup for the one world government thingy

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby the croc » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:00 am

xSUSPECTx wrote:yeh whatever, modified was it, can you elaborate on that?


The government is changing its Search and Surveillance Bill after concerns were raised about the powers it gives to police and other law enforcement agencies.

Parliament's justice select committee, which heard public submissions on the bill, last week released an interim report which detailed the concerns raised.

Justice Minister Simon Power said today the changes would place further restrictions on the exercise of powers under the bill and strengthen protection under its search and surveillance regime.

The bill was designed to regulate and standardise the powers of law enforcement agencies and the changes would substantially address public concerns, he said.

The changes include:

- Limiting the use of visual surveillance devices on private property, and all audio surveillance, to offences carrying a maximum penalty of seven years' imprisonment or more, with the exception of some Arms Act offences;

- Clarifying that a warrant is required to conduct surveillance involving entry on to private property;

- Limiting examination orders to serious offences, such as those committed by organised criminal groups;

-Creating a destruction regime for raw surveillance data that is not of investigative value; and

- Limiting the power to detain people at a search scene to enforcement officers who already have the ability to arrest for a specific offence in relation to which they are undertaking the search.

The select committee will consider the changes and report the bill back to Parliament by the end of October.


http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/govt-ch ... ll-3710181

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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby the croc » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:12 am

Article on fundamental changes to the justice system over the last few years:

Getting arrested is not a sign of guilt

by Annemarie Thorby, 15 November 2010

New Zealand's justice system is going through another major change this week.

The Criminal Procedure (Reform and Modernisation) Bill has just been signed off by Cabinet. The end result is that it will be harder and harder for people accused of a crime to defend themselves.

The option of trial by jury will be completely scrapped for many people. From next year, only those facing a possible sentence of three years or more will be able to select a jury trial. Up until December 2008, that was an option available to anyone facing a sentence of more than three months. But the first Criminal Procedure Bill changed that.

This week's Criminal Procedure Bill is actually Part 2 of the Criminal Procedure (Simplification) Project introduced by Labour in October 2007. Both Bills are supposedly part of a package to primarily address the long delays that can occur in court cases and to save the state thousands of dollars. However, what they are, are part of a consistent chipping away at our legal system to ensure that the scales of justice are more than ever balanced firmly in favour of the state.

The first Bill ensured that unanimous jury verdicts ceased to exist, it introduced exceptions to the double jeopardy rule, and introduced written pre-trial evidence as standard procedure.

With Part 2 this week, not only is the right to a jury trial completely changing, but other core principles are getting tossed on their head. When this Bill becomes law the norm will be that counsel must attempt to resolve cases before a hearing, and the defence will be required to identify issues in dispute prior to the trial. A jury trial will be allowed to continue when the jury numbers consists of only 10. And, if the judge is not satisfied that a defendant has a reasonable excuse for their absence, a courtcase can go ahead without the accused person's presence. I wonder what a 'reasonable excuse' is? Once, on the morning of one of my own court cases, I had to take my year old daughter to A&E. She had eaten a poisonous plant. That was not a reasonable excuse. Instead of spending the afternoon with my upset daughter, I had to leave her with friends and defend myself in court.

The Criminal Procedure Bills (both Part 1 and Part 2) however, are just the tip of the iceberg. The last few years have seen many fundamental changes to our justice system. These include:

[*]the abolition of the partial defence of provocation,

[*]the 'claim of right' defence can now only be used by people who believe they have a right to the property involved in the alleged offending (this could be an interesting legal argument used up and down the country, including by Ngati Kahu people recently arrested on their land in Taipa.),

[*]more people have to give DNA samples and from next year all arrested people charged with an imprisonable offence will automatically have DNA samples taken,

[*]courtroom video links. People remanded in custody now can appear in court via a video link from prison,

[*]our own version of the infamous California three strikes law and you're out,

[*]legal aid laws have changed, and if (when) the Legal Services Bill becomes law an accused person will not have the right to choose their own lawyer,

[*]longer sentencing laws have been passed and changes to parole mean that people serving a sentence of 12 months or less are not entitled to parole,

[*]police can cease a person's assets on suspicion of a crime. No criminal activity has to be proven in a court. The onus is moved from the state to prove guilt, to the individual to prove that they have committed no criminal activity.
This reminds me of the the Search and Surveillance Bill. This Bill is currently wending its way though Parliament and it also turns core concepts of justice on its head. It also swings the burden of proof away from the state and onto the individual. Through both Production Orders and Examination Orders a person will be obliged to assist the state in their own prosecution.

What is happening in NZ is a massive assault on two core principles of so-called justice. The core assumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty and that it is the state's role to prove a person's guilt beyond reasonable doubt are disappearing.

However, getting arrested is not a sign of guilt.

I find it inconceivable that we are allowing these laws to pass through Parliament.

And for those people who say that we have the Bill of Rights to protect ourselves, it may not be there for much longer. National has already given notice that they are also going to be reviewing that legislation.

ENDS
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Re: 'Modern' Justice wants more of you in prison.

Postby arkie » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:20 am

ugh.

good post. Just depressing as fuck.


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