Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Matt » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:26 pm

Regardless of whether you chalk it up to race or culture, making judgements on people based on wild generalisations is prejudice. This leads to fear, hatred and intolerance.

Quite why someone would try to defend such ignorance as a positive thing is beyond me.

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby svpam » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:29 pm

Regardless of whether you chalk it up to race or culture, making judgements on people based on wild generalisations is prejudice. This leads to fear, hatred and intolerance.

Quite why someone would try to defend such ignorance as a positive thing is beyond me.


Crime figures are wild generalisations?

Hold on,

na.

Actually wait -

Bugger it, we are all doomed again. :lol:

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby crain » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:32 pm

had a funny encounter with rude, spendthrift jews yester.

Aside from that, boring.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Matt » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:34 pm

Sorry, are you saying the only contributing factor to whether you commit a crime is due to your race or culture?

It's not, say, socio-economic conditions, for example?

Or, to take it a different way from your generalisations: men are far more likely, according to the figures, to commit rape than women. So should all women cross the road to avoid men and consider them rapists-in-waiting...?

How about the fact that most paedophiles are adults? So should no adults be allowed near children? In face, most child abuse is by family members - so should we break up all families?

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby ghetto ninja » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:36 pm

svpam wrote: And I think my pitbull comment was good. Pitbulls were bred for fighting, where as poodles were bred for toy shows and a household pet.

They were bred for fighting by french peasants.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby skirmish » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:39 pm

has no job, yet spends every day enforcing the law......

typical french, breeding poodles, obviously not nearly as hardout as maaaries and their vicious pitbulls.

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby svpam » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:44 pm

Sorry, are you saying the only contributing factor to whether you commit a crime is due to your race or culture?

It's not, say, socio-economic conditions, for example?


So are you trying to say that all cultures and races are on an equal playing field when it comes to, lets say, socio-economic conditions for example?

Or, to take it a different way from your generalisations: men are far more likely, according to the figures, to commit rape than women. So should all women cross the road to avoid men and consider them rapists-in-waiting...?


Depends on whether she has been raped before. Im sure some woman are actually like this.

How about the fact that most paedophiles are adults? So should no adults be allowed near children? In face, most child abuse is by family members - so should we break up all families?


Of course most paedophiles are adults, old men sometimes want young pussy. Adults with that sort of history should not be let near children, no. When it comes to child abuse, its all about the family. There are some familys in certain cultures, socio-economically speaking, that are pre-disposed to family violence. Instead of breaking them up we send CYFS.

They were bred for fighting by french peasants


Poodles have had 1000 generations of change since they were initially bred that way. Maoris only stopped eating people a few lousy generations ago. Its a learning thing, in-bred. Get it?

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby svpam » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:56 pm

ANyway, Im off to bash a cop. Later on i might sell some of my land for alcohol, see if I cant get bail for longer, steal something from a shop, get something cheaper from housing nz, keep applying for a higher dole, drink some more, and finally smash my broken up car parked out the front.

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Hipster_Faggot » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:00 pm

svpam wrote:
Sorry, are you saying the only contributing factor to whether you commit a crime is due to your race or culture?

It's not, say, socio-economic conditions, for example?


So are you trying to say that all cultures and races are on an equal playing field when it comes to, lets say, socio-economic conditions for example?


Of course they're not, that's why we have these problems in the first place. The negative statistical markers that Maori are associated with are due to racism and the effects of colonialism rather than their culture. The reason for all the problems they face and crime Maori create is due to their class, the lower class of most races tends to commit a lot more crime than the middle class of their race. If there wasn't such a massive income disparity between races then it's pretty damn likely that Maori wouldn't face as many problems.

Racism still dogs them down and will continue to as long as the media keeps representing them in a negative light, but I guess niggers never do anything positive eh? If enough people attribute a belief to an ascribed status group and act upon those beliefs then those beliefs will become true in their macro sociological consequences whether they're true or not.

This has major effects which hold non hegemonic racial groups down, the crime statistics towards Maori are likely to be heavily inflated by institutional racism as well as the employment statistics.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby xSUSPECTx » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:02 pm

svpam wrote:ANyway, Im off to bash a cop. Later on i might sell some of my land for alcohol, see if I cant get bail for longer, steal something from a shop, get something cheaper from housing nz, keep applying for a higher dole, drink some more, and finally smash my broken up car parked out the front.
so you have given up the 'im not racist' bit then?
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Spots2012 wrote:do animal rights activists vehemently oppose Maori eating pigs etc, or are they willing to let that one slide?

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby [Tim] » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:05 pm

Is this cunt for real?

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby norty » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:17 pm

Agree with Matt

Also, 'race' is a cultural rather than scientific construct, meaning it is not scientifically valid. Therefore if you think one population group is genetically superior to another you're a proper doonghi. Also 'cultural evolution' is a dodgy concept and multi-linear so ranking cultures doesnt work. Having said this cultural relativity is important for anthropologists but its unreasonable to assume that people are going to agree with or understand all aspects of other cultures (extreme examples would be honour killings or eating whale). People should just try and be more tolerant and live by the maxim "dont be a cunt".

...and just because 'race' doesnt exist scientifically it doesn't mean that racism doesn't, as spvam demonstrates above

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Martli » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:25 pm

norty wrote:Agree with Matt

Also, 'race' is a cultural rather than scientific construct, meaning it is not scientifically valid. Therefore if you think one population group is genetically superior to another you're a proper doonghi. Also 'cultural evolution' is a dodgy concept and multi-linear so ranking cultures doesnt work. Having said this cultural relativity is important for anthropologists but its unreasonable to assume that people are going to agree with or understand all aspects of other cultures (extreme examples would be honour killings or eating whale). People should just try and be more tolerant and live by the maxim "dont be a cunt".


Well, race by itself isn't exactly a cultural construct, but the idea of racial superiority is. Humans are genetically pretty much the same with the obvious variance that you get in every species, but that variance is across the population as a whole, not between racial groups. I'm pretty sure biologists do use race to categorise humans somewhat, but not in a "this group is genetically better" way.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby norty » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:30 pm

Martli wrote:
norty wrote:Agree with Matt

Also, 'race' is a cultural rather than scientific construct, meaning it is not scientifically valid. Therefore if you think one population group is genetically superior to another you're a proper doonghi. Also 'cultural evolution' is a dodgy concept and multi-linear so ranking cultures doesnt work. Having said this cultural relativity is important for anthropologists but its unreasonable to assume that people are going to agree with or understand all aspects of other cultures (extreme examples would be honour killings or eating whale). People should just try and be more tolerant and live by the maxim "dont be a cunt".


Well, race by itself isn't exactly a cultural construct, but the idea of racial superiority is. Humans are genetically pretty much the same with the obvious variance that you get in every species, but that variance is across the population as a whole, not between racial groups. I'm pretty sure biologists do use race to categorise humans somewhat, but not in a "this group is genetically better" way.


they use another term. My stats lecturer is a bio anthro nerd and you get in trouble if you use the word race. He takes a class called 'Race and Racism' which im sure would have the answer to all this. The closest thing ive taken is a human osteology paper where you find out that there is more variation within than between populations. I know the wikipedia page for 'race' answers this

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Martli » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:31 pm

Right, is ethnicity a better term?
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby norty » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:36 pm

Martli wrote:Right, is ethnicity a better term?


cant remember. I know wikipedia suggests a better term but its not working at the moment. I think the problem that nowdays no groups exist in proper isolation (or have for long enough to become distinct). This is the best i could find so far:

Today the term has little scientific standing, as older methods of differentiation, including hair form and body measurement, have given way to the comparative analysis of DNA and gene frequencies relating to such factors as blood typing, the excretion of amino acids, and inherited enzyme deficiencies. Because all human populations today are extremely similar genetically, most researchers have abandoned the concept of race for the concept of the cline, a graded series of differences occurring along a line of environmental or geographical transition. This reflects the recognition that human populations have always been in a state of flux, with genes constantly flowing from one gene pool to another, impeded only by physical or ecological boundaries. While relative isolation does preserve genetic differences and allow populations to maximally adapt to climatic and disease factors over long periods of time, all groups currently existing are thoroughly "mixed" genetically, and such differences as still exist do not lend themselves to simple typologizing. "Race" is today primarily a sociological designation, identifying a class sharing some outward physical characteristics and some commonalities of culture and history.

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby FC » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:40 pm

It basically says on wikipedia that looking at groups of people based on race isnt particularly accurate, and most scientists instead study phenotypes and genotypes using concepts such as "populations" and "clinal gradation" (differences due to environment, geography etc.).



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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby svpam » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:45 pm

The reason for all the problems they face and crime Maori create is due to their class, the lower class of most races tends to commit a lot more crime than the middle class of their race.


Ok. So you are saying "they are poor, so that is their excuse for committing crime". Are you trying to say that everyone who is poor commits crime? What would you do to solve this problem, throw money at it? :lol:

Racism still dogs them down and will continue to as long as the media keeps representing them in a negative light, but I guess niggers never do anything positive eh?


Pulling the race card out, good one. Blaming the media, even better!! :roll:

There is a million excuses for their behaviour, but until they start changing it I will assume and think of Maori however I see fit. Still want to say your not left wing?

It basically says on wikipedia that looking at groups of people based on race isnt particularly accurate, and most scientists instead study phenotypes and genotypes using concepts such as "populations" and "clinal gradation" (differences due to environment, geography etc.).

What if you look at groups of people based on culture?

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby xSUSPECTx » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:47 pm

Martli wrote:Right, is ethnicity a better term?
thats really just semantics, people of different races and cultures often share similar traits, and people of the same race or culture(or ethnicity, whatever) can be completely different to each other.
people often just seem to fill the available roles, in latter days as we have become such a cross cultural society that people off certain cultures can fulfill that entire stereotype.
Carly Ngarotata-Simon wrote:U misd two commas u illiterate fuk. It should read...mainstream, whilst at the same time, ... Who da dumb cunt now. Im bilingual. I can txt speak n also write in 'proper' english havin bn a legal secretary 4 13 years. So im actualy fukn streams ahead in inteligence ova u. Plus i hav a life! I dnt waste my time typing evry leta out cos i have a life! Dum ass. Peace, im out. Hahahahaha

Spots2012 wrote:do animal rights activists vehemently oppose Maori eating pigs etc, or are they willing to let that one slide?

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Phlegm » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:48 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0zoa1ZXbhY[/youtube]
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Martli » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:55 pm

Ok, I think I get it now. I think I was just confused as to what "race" meant: confusing the socially constructed aspect of it with scientific classification. From what I gather on wiki science defines a race as a sub-species, Humans being 1 single sub-species (Homo Sapiens). Whereas something like "Cline" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cline_(population_genetics) was probably a more accurate term for what I was looking for, groups within a race that share similar traits/geography which we base socially constructed "race" on etc.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby akaxo » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:03 pm

svpam wrote:
The reason for all the problems they face and crime Maori create is due to their class, the lower class of most races tends to commit a lot more crime than the middle class of their race.


Ok. So you are saying "they are poor, so that is their excuse for committing crime". Are you trying to say that everyone who is poor commits crime? What would you do to solve this problem, throw money at it? :lol:


you can't seriously be saying there's no correlation between being poor and crime surely? your opinion is obviously not based on any of the vast amounts of research that has been done in this area. and of course no one is saying everyone who is poor commits crime, that's about as retarded as saying everyone who is maori is going to be violent. socio-economic status is directly related to crime rates for all manner of reasons
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Dead Kid » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:03 pm

norty wrote:The closest thing ive taken is a human osteology paper where you find out that there is more variation within than between populations.

This article explains it pretty well.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Hipster_Faggot » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:20 pm

double post fufufu
Last edited by Hipster_Faggot on Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Hipster_Faggot » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:21 pm

svpam wrote:
The reason for all the problems they face and crime Maori create is due to their class, the lower class of most races tends to commit a lot more crime than the middle class of their race.


Ok. So you are saying "they are poor, so that is their excuse for committing crime". Are you trying to say that everyone who is poor commits crime? What would you do to solve this problem, throw money at it? :lol:

It's not an excuse, it's one of the causes of the crime. I'm not saying that it's a Maori specific problem either, just that because they are the poorest in our society it is represented through crime and prison stats.

If by throw money at it you mean increase the quality of education and measures such as studylink to increase class mobility then yes.

svpam wrote:
Racism still dogs them down and will continue to as long as the media keeps representing them in a negative light, but I guess niggers never do anything positive eh?


Pulling the race card out, good one. Blaming the media, even better!! :roll:

There is a million excuses for their behaviour, but until they start changing it I will assume and think of Maori however I see fit. Still want to say your not left wing?


Never said I'm not left, my opinions on social issues don't exactly make me left either.

Race card? You seem to be a bit of a narrow minded upstart. I'm not blaming the media, it's part of the racialization process which is one major factor combined with class that doesn't help anyone who isn't white. As long as races are ranked on their collective positive and negative traits (whether real or not) then they are all going to be worse off than those who are percieved as hegemonically ideal. If you haven't realised Maori aren't exactly part of the NZ hegemony, we're not the egalitarian society that our schools try and instil into us that we're living in.

If you're lower class and Maori you're worse off than someone of the same class and equal to you in every way except for skin colour because of racism.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby svpam » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:39 pm

maori have and do currently recieve plenty of help from the government. pointing the finger at white people wont help you much either mate, thats just racist

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby ghetto ninja » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:42 pm

svpam wrote:maori have and do currently recieve plenty of help from the government. pointing the finger at white people wont help you much either mate, thats just racist

Pointing the finger at the effects of colonization isnt the same as pointing the finger at white people.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby xSUSPECTx » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:44 pm

theres a few people on the other side of this debate that need to hear that too
Carly Ngarotata-Simon wrote:U misd two commas u illiterate fuk. It should read...mainstream, whilst at the same time, ... Who da dumb cunt now. Im bilingual. I can txt speak n also write in 'proper' english havin bn a legal secretary 4 13 years. So im actualy fukn streams ahead in inteligence ova u. Plus i hav a life! I dnt waste my time typing evry leta out cos i have a life! Dum ass. Peace, im out. Hahahahaha

Spots2012 wrote:do animal rights activists vehemently oppose Maori eating pigs etc, or are they willing to let that one slide?

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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby Hamtown Dave » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:49 pm

The reality of particular ethnic groups being over-represented in crime statistics isn't just attributable to socio-economic status... there's a bunch of other factors, none of which is a "cultural disposition towards committing crime", or even towards acting violently. Crime in itself is a social construct. The criminal statistics of any particular ethnic group can be affected by criminal profiling, police targeting, preconceived ideas of how particular people act. What do you think it is like growing up in a society where people like yourself think your propensity to act violently is dictated by skin color, or "culture" as you put it? (Like that makes any difference) Don't even get me started on imprisonment rates across ethnic groups.
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Re: Race vs Culture - CAN OF WORMS

Postby norty » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:52 pm

Dead Kid wrote:
norty wrote:The closest thing ive taken is a human osteology paper where you find out that there is more variation within than between populations.

This article explains it pretty well.



nice succinct explanation. I like that it highlights how dodgy stats are if the assumptions aren't met and how inferences made from the sample population aren't always valid for the total population of interest (in this case all humans). The Brazilian example of skin pigmentation levels and relatedness to African ancestry is also interesting.

Anyway, (even though the first post uses an incorrect/outdated definition of 'race') this topic refers to 'race' as a social construct so I'll shut up now.

Hamtown Dave wrote:The reality of particular ethnic groups being over-represented in crime statistics isn't just attributable to socio-economic status... there's a bunch of other factors, none of which is a "cultural disposition towards committing crime", or even towards acting violently. Crime in itself is a social construct. The criminal statistics of any particular ethnic group can be affected by criminal profiling, police targeting, preconceived ideas of how particular people act. What do you think it is like growing up in a society where people like yourself think your propensity to act violently is dictated by skin color, or "culture" as you put it? (Like that makes any difference) Don't even get me started on imprisonment rates across ethnic groups.


This reminds me of a real good 30min doco on the Brixton riots and how they were caused by the hardout racial profiling of the pigs. Worked with an old Jamaican over there and he would tell me stories of how before the riots you would get searched/arrested without fail just for being black

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCjZEZt3QKc


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