Celtic New Zealand

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nerdXcore
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Postby nerdXcore » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:18 pm

If you read the articles you would have realised how full of bigoted rhetoric they were


I did read the articles, I thought they were pretty interesting and I wouldn't completely write them off. Just because it may be true I don't believe will have any impact on Maori and the treaty, I think you misunderstand these peoples intentions. I say you're ignorant because you completely disregard a possible historical truth simply because you think that if it is true it will undermine your heritage. I find those articles no less bigoted than some of the totally biased pro-maori articles you post.

man you are the ignorant one if you think celts had a: the technology and b: the knowledge of global geography to make it down here in the 12th century.


I never said I believed it was true, I said it might be. Would I be ignorant to think the ancient Egyptians had the technology and engineering skills to build the pyramids?

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Postby Maleficent » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:04 pm

two_days_late wrote:you used to goto lytton aye mel. some chicks at skool know you. totally off topic but to bad.


My last year at high school was in 1991.

Everybody thinks they know me.
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Postby / » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:04 pm

nerdXcore wrote:I never said I believed it was true, I said it might be.
yes and the celts might also have explored the depths of the mariana trench. like i said you are fuckn ignorant. and what's more you are ignorant and stubborn which makes you a COCK.

nerdXcore wrote:Would I be ignorant to think the ancient Egyptians had the technology and engineering skills to build the pyramids?
no because there is plenty of evidence pointing to the egyptians building the pyramids, also the construction of a pyramid is possible with the technology and people power we know the egyptians possessed.

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Postby Pixil » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:10 pm

Wax wrote:
Mob King wrote:Where'd you find that?

Celtic is what white trash say when they're trying to be Oriental or interesting.


im white trash and celtic, and i resent that comment and resent anglo saxons with 'celtic' book of kells tatts...

its obviously not true (aidan)
but there is real evidence out there of pre maori people so. nyah suffer in your ignorance fuckheads

you dont know fuck all about it.


Wax, I like you!

....

and to the rest of you ignorant scum...

have you SEEN the evidence for this "NZ conspiracy"

anyone that actually believees that the maoris were here first are FOOLS, especially with atlantean artifacts and stone henges throughout NZ telling a different story!

jeez...ppl are so stupid!

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Postby LegDog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:17 pm

phil wrote:
nerdXcore wrote:I never said I believed it was true, I said it might be.
yes and the celts might also have explored the depths of the mariana trench. like i said you are fuckn ignorant. and what's more you are ignorant and stubborn which makes you a COCK.

nerdXcore wrote:Would I be ignorant to think the ancient Egyptians had the technology and engineering skills to build the pyramids?
no because there is plenty of evidence pointing to the egyptians building the pyramids, also the construction of a pyramid is possible with the technology and people power we know the egyptians possessed.


dude, you're priceless. I know, if anyone ever disagrees with me on a public forum maybe I'll call them ignorant and resort to petty insults

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Postby Maleficent » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:37 pm

When you have people saying things like

nyah suffer in your ignorance fuckheads

you dont know fuck all about it.


I think the chance for an informed discussion went out the door ages ago.
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Postby LegDog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:59 pm

That's long gone. nerdXcore is the one that ebola is arguing with now, and nerdXcore is actually putting forward a reasonable argument, to which ebola is retorting with insults and pedantics.

Just cos one person said something stupid earlier doesn't mean that a reasonable debate can't take place. If that were true, there would be no point, there are always idiots on message boards.

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Postby Maleficent » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:22 pm

No-one is being reasonable in this thread. I know I certainly refuse to argue reasonably against racism. They can't exist in the same room.

Good on ya Phil for using insults - thats pretty much all that there is after people try pushing racist misinformation down your throat.

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Postby / » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:31 pm

LegDog wrote:That's long gone. nerdXcore is the one that ebola is arguing with now, and nerdXcore is actually putting forward a reasonable argument, to which ebola is retorting with insults and pedantics.
ok so besides a website without any actual evidence on it where is the "evidence" which i should be taking seriously.

i am celtic and from aotearoa, of which i am proud. but because a few people are making unrealistic and ridiculous claims doesn't mean i should treat their one-eyed, baseless and racist claims with anything other than the disdain that they deserve.

and i will resort to insults because i have read their claims, i have read the website/s and i have not seen ANYTHING which even remotely proves an extremely unlikely event. as far as i am concernd those espousing these views are stupid and stubborn and unable to back up thir points but are still able to argue and demean others for pointing out the ridiculousness of the claims.

fuck off you fuckn stupid cocks.

as for you legdog, just because you couldn't win a debate if your life depended on it doesn't mean you need to chime in with attacks against my frustrated rebuttals. what part of nerd's argument is "reasonable" what does he use to back up his claims?? oh yeah he siad it "might" have happened.......right that is a really reasonable argument, considering it is not totally impossible for people tro make it from one side of the world to the other. however the total lack of evidence suggests it didn't happen. the total unlikeliness and improbabilty also suggests it didn't happen. what about if i suggested that the greeks made it here first? what would you say to that. or maybe the mongols, yeah the mongols.....you fuckn idiots.

i see no need to be cool and polite when the claims are baseless and a sorry attempt at usurping the rights of tangata whenua.

celts definitely made it to aotearoa, but PROVE to me it predated maori. fuckn PROVE it cunts.

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Postby LegDog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:02 pm

Prove it DIDN'T predate Maori...

But that's not my point. As I said in my very first post in this thread, I personally find it hard to believe. I would be interested in reading more about it, but these sites make the point of saying that there are a number of injunctions preventing further research into the matter. This is a valid point. It also renders your request to "prove it" quite impossible by no fault of my own. If anyone writes this off as pure speculation when people are denied the rights to actually research it further, then they are ignorant.

Yet you will constantly dismiss it as racist. Villainising people who are even slightly interested in "radical" alternatives is no new thing, and it amuses me to se it manifested so blatantly in this thread. Anti-communism anyone?

Note also that a large proportion of the research actually comes from overseas, from people who (arguably) have no hidden agendas or nothing to gain from the evidence (and there is evidence) provided?

Come on ebola, you spent an entire other thread telling people to research Maori history for themselves. Why don't you research this alternative for yourself instead of expecting others to provide it to you on a plate?

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Postby / » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:16 pm

LegDog wrote:Prove it DIDN'T predate Maori...
ok for starters when one makes a totally baseless claim the onus is on THE CLAIMANT to provide proof.

statement is made, it is challenged on grounds of total lack of evidence, claimant provides evidence. simple.

LegDog wrote: If anyone writes this off as pure speculation when people are denied the rights to actually research it further, then they are ignorant.
i'm not denying anyone's right to prove it.

LegDog wrote:Yet you will constantly dismiss it as racist. Villainising people who are even slightly interested in "radical" alternatives is no new thing, and it amuses me to se it manifested so blatantly in this thread. Anti-communism anyone?
what? i also think the claims that aliens built the pyramids are bullshit.

the reason, legdog, that we get so fuckn hot under the collar about it is because we are living in a country where the undisputed tangata whenua have had their land stolen from them while the majority are either blissfully unaware or (seemingly) believe in the right of conquest through force, trickery and manipulation and therefore do nothing to rectify the dishonesty of the past.....or more disgustingly actively oppose measures undertaken to right the wrongs. then some of these same people try to lay some sort of predated claim to the rights of these people who have had so many wrongs committed against them.

LegDog wrote:Note also that a large proportion of the research actually comes from overseas, from people who (arguably) have no hidden agendas or nothing to gain from the evidence (and there is evidence) provided?
mate if you call a few unproven claims on some WEBSITES "research" then you are really into stretching the english language aren't you....

LegDog wrote:Come on ebola, you spent an entire other thread telling people to research Maori history for themselves. Why don't you research this alternative for yourself instead of expecting others to provide it to you on a plate?
no. i also wil not research whether or not aliens built the pyramids, i will not waste my time researching ANYTHING that is illogical and improbable to the point of being impossible, if others want to do that then good on them, if the weight of evidence points to something that i have laughed at then i will have to eat my words.

UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THAT HAPPENS I VIEW YOU ALL WITH THE UTMOST DISDAIN.

eat shit you racist, issue dodging SCUM.

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Postby LegDog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:46 pm

phil wrote:eat shit you racist, issue dodging SCUM


I haven't explicitly identified with any "side" in this argument, but if anything I think it's clear from a number of my posts that I do not believe these claims. My posts in this thread have been basically to defend those that you have been calling racist in their interest to find out more about an alternative scenario to mainstream New Zealand history, the origins of which are quite fuzzy anyway.

So in light of this, I think the fact that you are calling me racist merely adds to my argument. It reminds me of that old witch-sniffer skit from Blackadder...


phil wrote:
LegDog wrote:Prove it DIDN'T predate Maori...
ok for starters when one makes a totally baseless claim the onus is on THE CLAIMANT to provide proof.

statement is made, it is challenged on grounds of total lack of evidence, claimant provides evidence. simple.


OK, hopefully you're with me now, and you realise that I am not a claimant. And total lack of evidence? The websites cite a reference list, which makes them every bit as credible as the sites Mel has been posting on this forum in my opinion. Whether you choose to follow them up or not is YOUR problem. You cannot dismiss them as a "lack of evidence" purely because you do not choose to follow them up

phil wrote:
LegDog wrote: If anyone writes this off as pure speculation when people are denied the rights to actually research it further, then they are ignorant.
i'm not denying anyone's right to prove it.


I never said you were. Read the sites again. There are legal injunctions preventing the research. Seems pretty self-serving...

phil wrote:
LegDog wrote:Yet you will constantly dismiss it as racist. Villainising people who are even slightly interested in "radical" alternatives is no new thing, and it amuses me to se it manifested so blatantly in this thread. Anti-communism anyone?
what? i also think the claims that aliens built the pyramids are bullshit.

the reason, legdog, that we get so fuckn hot under the collar about it is because we are living in a country where the undisputed tangata whenua have had their land stolen from them while the majority are either blissfully unaware or (seemingly) believe in the right of conquest through force, trickery and manipulation and therefore do nothing to rectify the dishonesty of the past.....or more disgustingly actively oppose measures undertaken to right the wrongs. then some of these same people try to lay some sort of predated claim to the rights of these people who have had so many wrongs committed against them.


Undisputed tangata whenua? Clearly it is disputed! Are you sure you know what this thread is all about? Did you actually check the sites?

LegDog wrote:"phil"
LegDog wrote:Note also that a large proportion of the research actually comes from overseas, from people who (arguably) have no hidden agendas or nothing to gain from the evidence (and there is evidence) provided?
mate if you call a few unproven claims on some WEBSITES "research" then you are really into stretching the english language aren't you....


Am I? A lot of historical "evidence" relies on unproven claims, purely because history denies us the right to prove it. But I digress, there IS evidence there, it IS referenced from books that have been written on the topic.

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Postby David xvx Ludd » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:46 pm

Mel said it well enough.

I should also point out that the Celtic NZ page has information about a "universal language" spoken by all humans. Back before the aliens came, presumably.

Why do otherwise quite intelligent people not take one look at these sites and see them for what they are? (that is, complete and utter trash?)
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Postby LegDog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:51 pm

JoeyNormal wrote:Why do otherwise quite intelligent people not take one look at these sites and see them for what they are? (that is, complete and utter trash?)


What makes them any different from the multitude of online alternative media that media critics and commentators the world over generally regard as the best media in the world?

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Postby / » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:56 pm

LegDog wrote:So in light of this, I think the fact that you are calling me racist merely adds to my argument. It reminds me of that old witch-sniffer skit from Blackadder...
oh ffs! i find it interesting you thought it was directed at you.

LegDog wrote:Undisputed tangata whenua? Clearly it is disputed! Are you sure you know what this thread is all about? Did you actually check the sites?
ok fuckwit, i will read any of the "references" those sites refer to that i can get my hands on. give me a few weeks and i'll get back to you, i suggest you do the same.

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Postby LegDog » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:01 am

phil wrote:
LegDog wrote:So in light of this, I think the fact that you are calling me racist merely adds to my argument. It reminds me of that old witch-sniffer skit from Blackadder...
oh ffs! i find it interesting you thought it was directed at you.

LegDog wrote:Undisputed tangata whenua? Clearly it is disputed! Are you sure you know what this thread is all about? Did you actually check the sites?
ok fuckwit, i will read any of the "references" those sites refer to that i can get my hands on. give me a few weeks and i'll get back to you, i suggest you do the same.


Was that one directed at me? :wink: OK, I will check it out. Later

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Postby David xvx Ludd » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:21 am

LegDog wrote:
JoeyNormal wrote:Why do otherwise quite intelligent people not take one look at these sites and see them for what they are? (that is, complete and utter trash?)


What makes them any different from the multitude of online alternative media that media critics and commentators the world over generally regard as the best media in the world?


The fact that they claim things like an ancient universal language? The fact that they cite few - if any - sources? The fact that they blather about "historians" who have absolutely no credibility?

And since when was the online alternative media the "best media in the world?"
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Postby The Ost » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:09 am

Pixil wrote:anyone that actually believees that the maoris were here first are FOOLS, especially with atlantean artifacts and stone henges throughout NZ telling a different story!

jeez...ppl are so stupid!


that's not even the point....the issue is what is the motive behind it all? if you want to read one page then come in with a completely misguided view of it all then wonderful, we have found an idiot.

I, for one, imagine somebody came here before the Maori, but obviously they fucked off - and anyway so what? At the moment there is enough turmoil trying to solve all the problems between the Maori and the Crown, so any further debate really isn't of any beenficial use until we sort the shit out we've already made for ourselves.

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Postby lost_cause » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:22 am

"On his fourth exploit, Maui fished up the land with his enchanted jawbone hook"

i personally think Maui did not have the resources to do this either. at the end of the day both cultures have some pretty bullshit storys. and i find it strange that people would rather argue about something that "happend" 800 years ago than get on with making NZ a better place now.

the general attitude from most people i know, Maori, Europeon, Aisan, Whatever . is to cut your losses and get on with it.

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Postby samina » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:33 am

I've just posted the website about the Chinese miners to the Chinese Emabasy in New Zealand so they know about it and for there Govt. to do some research for themselves. I also gave them all the pther websites to look at too.

I have been getting these websites onto overseas archeology groups too, I want everyone to know about them around the world, so as to put pressure on our Govt. to lift restrictions on research of these areas.
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Postby Ph!1 » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:20 pm

well, well, well, it has gone to shit hasnt it?
i dont think you can blame that on me, but fuck who cares what i think, i just want to stick up for the celts a bit more as i always do, to that person who made the silly comment that circumnavigating the world is different to ''puttering around the Orkney isles" that really shows your ignorance, and you obviously wont even know why, and like last time i wont go into depth to prove you wrong, but il tell you that the waters around the Hebrides is considered some of the most dangerous and treacherous in the whole world, and id like to ask you, have you ever heard of St Brendan? like the other names i mentioned learn about them before you mock them, i dont go around saying that the Maori couldnt possibly have built the enclosures and aligned the stones and left the artifacts, or then proceeed to mock thier nations founders and Hero's, they certainly could have posses the technology or reason to do so, i just dont happen to think they did.
it is pretty much common knowledge that cook wasnt first here(of europeans), any real historian knows that he came here with a portugeuse map, but of course it suited the english to claim he was first for obvious reasons, and historians dont like changing history, oh no they dont. its pretty sure that the offical history is way off teh mark, but politics rule for now, i d say dont dig shit up til this damn fucked up treaty process is resolved cos there are people who stand to lose lots of money if its proven maori werent first here, if you uncover anything you will be called a racist and your findings taken and destroyed or reburied.
in anycase, Samina you wont find much help out there no-one really gives a shit, everyone has bigger fish to fry, and sell to each other. this world in its present state isnt a world that learns from past mistakes, the western world is a teenager, a big strong stupid teenager, not willing to admit it is wrong and not ready to back down, and the stupid bugger is ready to destroy the fuckin earth probably before it grows up too.

so everyone stop getting all bent up about it, go tip over a pajero it feels good.

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Postby / » Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:48 am

Wax wrote: i just want to stick up for the celts a bit more as i always do, .
what the fuck do you think my signature means? what the fuck do you think it means............?

i will stick up for my people if it fuckn kills me but that does not involve trying to usurp the power of another people.

just because i find it FUCKN hard to believe my people were here before maori does NOT mean anything cunt.


it is BULLSHIT. issue dodging BULLSHIT. and it is not about money it is about HONOUR and gold old fashioned fuckn FAIRNESS.

fuck you all.

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Postby Maleficent » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:16 am

Go Team Phil !

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Postby . » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:34 pm

propagandhi wrote:i stand not by my race but by the people of the whole world...
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Postby Ph!1 » Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:45 pm

well, Phil, im not sure why you are upset with me, i wasnt aiming anything at you, and ive read your arguments (not the ones like this i mean your points of view)and thought that you were pretty on2it, i didnt read much of the argument with Legdog, i really cant be bothered, im involved in enuff arguments myself to go thru all the pedantic minutae, and decide if i should try and join one of your tiny, petty sub-arguments.
i certainly have noticed your signature, and i likewise thought that was pretty cool, ive noticed you say alot of on2it things but you also go off the fucking handle in an argument like this, at about this point i have to admit (lest i look like a hell of a hypocrite) that ive done the same in many an argument particularly if someone has insulted my heritage(even more particularly when drunk as well)

anyway, im not trying to usurp the power of the Maori, i just want them to help rather than hinder historic research, of course i beleive they are victims of their powerful advisors and lawyers who stand to benefit more than the Maori themselves thru these land and sea claims, by playing the 'racism' card whenever someone threatens their (the lawyers) earnings.
personally i dont believe in the concept of ownership of land and sea any more than the concept of owning the air we breath, so ive decided now to keep out of it from now on.

Phil, again, i dont believe that our people were here before the Maori, but i think that someone was, and i quite honestly dont give a fuck about the land claims, but someone feels threatened by discoveries and potential discoveries and does not want them to happen.

this may seem like a bit of a reversal from those who've paid any attention to my posts recently (probably no-one) but its more of revertion to my earlier beleifs altho for new reasons, the Maori are in the right, in many cases, i certainly recognise the injustices done many times over, quite honestly the only opposition i have voiced has been a direct reaction to the racism i have recieved and observed in increasing amounts in recent times, a fear i have to admit of oilskin wearing east coasters with Moko and a hatred of 'white' people, and dont think i havnt met people like that.
back in Tauranga the majority of my friends are Maori, and ive met more than a few of these guys visting thier western whanau, ive even spent a weekend staying on a marae near Ruatoria, and playing rugby one morning i met more barely veiled racism directed at me, than id like to ever again, but these guys are a negative avatar of Maori rights activists and not an accurate representation, sure theres more than a few of em, but they spoil it for the peaceful Maori. unfortunatly i let some silly predjudices eclipse the real issue, and found myself on the wrong side in an argument i believe quite strongly about; the fairness that was spoken of. just remember however, not everyone who opposes the treaty is racist, i know many Maori who do.
but i digress, i just want it all to end, so that these things can be looked into, i didnt pick up on it at the time, but Ost made the same asertion, wait til the treaty process is resolved (to Samina) then we may see...

so what is the issue im dodging here Phil O'Cameron? i think calling these pseudo-historians racist is issue dodging, i dont really believe the celts are involved in this whole thing at all, except for celts like Mel. and perhaps whoever is credulous enough to believe the wild theories.

what im saying is, more clearly,
THERE WERE NO CELTS IN ANCIENT AOTEAROA, but i believe there may have been pre-Maori peoples, and i now say that the Maori should have their treaty honoured, we all know that they were ripped the fuck off even aside from invasion in of itself, so solve that, then let us learn about the ancient peoples who lived here, once the process is over,Maori have nothing to lose, and we can see once and for all,

the fact that i am interested in history has nothing to do with my celtic heritage (unless its a trait of the Gael which it may well be)

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Postby Maleficent » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:58 pm

Wax wrote: back in Tauranga the majority of my friends are Maori, and ive met more than a few of these guys visting thier western whanau, ive even spent a weekend staying on a marae near Ruatoria, and playing rugby one morning i met more barely veiled racism directed at me, than id like to ever again, but these guys are a negative avatar of Maori rights activists and not an accurate representation, sure theres more than a few of em, but they spoil it for the peaceful Maori. unfortunatly i let some silly predjudices eclipse the real issue, and found myself on the wrong side in an argument i believe quite strongly about; the fairness that was spoken of. just remember however, not everyone who opposes the treaty is racist, i know many Maori who do.


Tena Koe Phil Robey of Clova - please excuse me for seeming to pick apart your post here, but I just wanted to discuss the event you described above.

I think both sides suffer from letting predjudices clouding their judgement. I know this goes on in Ruatoria - it was particulary bad in the 80s when the Rastafarians were getting carried away with the church burnings and it culminated in the beheading of one of them. Up there alot of people have suffered from colonialism so they, quite rightly in my opinion, have a deep hatred and mistrust of anything that resembles their supposed enemy. I don't like this as at all, but there isn't alot of constructive activity going on to change it. You gotta understand that people have become so mistrustful, it is difficult for them to work through those hurdles.

Yes, there are alot of Maori who oppose the Treaty or simply can't be bothered with these issues. I think these people need to decolonise themselves and take a look at what it really means to Aotearoa as a nation. I firmly believe that we should be fighting oppression wherever we see it, not peddling misinformation about our past to confuse people.


Wax wrote:but i digress, i just want it all to end, so that these things can be looked into, i didnt pick up on it at the time, but Ost made the same asertion, wait til the treaty process is resolved (to Samina) then we may see...


I can't see any Treaty issues being resolved, even with the incoming foreshore legislation. All the Crown are doing is dictating to Maori what they can and can't have, when they never had the right to do that in the first place. And we certainly didn't sign that over.

Wax wrote:so what is the issue im dodging here Phil O'Cameron? i think calling these pseudo-historians racist is issue dodging, i dont really believe the celts are involved in this whole thing at all, except for celts like Mel. and perhaps whoever is credulous enough to believe the wild theories.


I don't think calling these pseudo-historians racist is issue-dodging at all. I've already said many times before in this thread that their motivations for writing trash like this IS RACIST. They want to discredit Maori, now that the Moriori/Maruiwi story is a proven colonial fallacy. This is to gain some kind of moral equivalency with Maori. That is the whole issue behind the wild theories. There is also nothing to stop me from saying that, quite possibly, these 'celts', the patupairehe, the turehu, the Moriori ARE MY ANCESTORS.

Everyone seems to think that one people came here and then they stopped. Then the Maori came here and they stopped. No-one gives any credit to intermarriages (like the many made between Irish, Scottish, Dutch, Ngati Porou, Te Whanau a Apanui, Whakatohea, Nga Puhi etc) between these peoples. Everyone thinks of these 'races' (I prefer the term culture) as FINITE. No-one thinks that maybe a culture came here perhaps over a thousand years ago and developed into what we now know as New Zealand Maori.
Cultures and people are not static. They do not merely stop and end - they keep on reproducing, changing and growing. Culture is a dynamic thing, not something you can mark as beginning and ending by certain arrangements of stones.

Don't forget that history is a political tool, just like science, art, business, religion and money. You can leave out certain facts to make anything seem credible. These people who wrote those sites have done just that. As Joey Normal noted earlier, they have no credible sources backing their theories. Why is that? There are many notable historians in New Zealand. I notice people like Doug Sutton haven't touched this one.

Everything seems so obvious to me and straightforward that I haven't been bothered to explain much in this thread. People can write to their MPs all they want but you gotta ask yourself why are they doing this? To discredit and undermine the Maori of Aotearoa as First Peoples? Does anyone know how disrespectful that is? Thats almost as bad as saying all Moriori are extinct or there are no full-blooded Maori left (remind me to discuss the Blood Quantum at a later date) !!

Anyway - I've typed out a bit, but above all I did appreciate your post Phil Robey of Clova and I am fucking loving the signature bit too

:D

Phil Robey of Clova wrote:Robey of Clova
Clanna Dhonnachaidh


Loving that reprazentin' \m/ 8) \m/
http://aotearoa666.com/

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Postby Ph!1 » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:20 pm

Tena Koutou Mel of the Goth (*edit*damn i just relaised this is a response for more than one person, what is the response for an individual?-my college TeReo is rusty to say the least)
well i find more ground here to agree on than disagree... i dont think i have time to go thru it all, but here goes...

yeh racist maori of the ilk i described are both very intimidating to a skinny red haired white boy on his own, and very fuckin stupid and the equivilent of a racist 'white power' bonehead. so i dont judge all Maori activists by them, but unfortunatly ive met so many racists and bully types wearing the flag of Maori sovereignity on a Tshirt that it takes away alot from a cause i could concievably support..

stupid people abound unfortunatly, but im not about to let them win (or more acuratly, lose for their/our bretheren)

yeh and maori who dont support the claims, well its not something i really feel i have time or even the right to go into in depth, its kinda a personal thing, certainly most the people i know who have an intelligent opinion yet still dont agree with land rights, are not going to benefit themselves and perhaps take a simaler view to the Propaghandi quote that Al posted above...

as for the 'pseudo-historians' i wont agree that they were written with overt racism in mind, of course we must specify arguments and articles when we talk of this, which i dont have time for, i havnt read any of these articles in fucking years, not since i got kicked out of a very pertinant archaeological internet group for bringing up these historical anomilies then arguing forcefuly-getting angry and using bad words- for investigation by internationaly recognised archaeologists to come here, and authenticate findings.

i agree that culture is dynamic and everchanging, a growing thing, i think that maybe Maori, at least as a name are a later addition to a culture that was ever growing, a warrior class that came and took over a people previously here, perhaps a more advanced people who knows...
i dont know, but i want to know, it interests me, dont ask me why, it does,
i know that the isssue of land rights is not being easily resolved, but i dont know exactly what to do about it, lack of time for a full discussion also hinders.
im not a racist, just a amateur historian.

let me introduce myself diplomaticly:

Ko Phil Toku Ingoa
Ko Ian Toku Papa
Ko Gerardine Toku Mama
Ko Uisge Taku Awa
Ko Benmor' Taku Maunga
Ko Robey Taku hapu
Ko 'Clan of the Gael' Taku Iwi.

And my Ilk is Gael, i am of the sons of Duncan, yet we take our name of King Robert, as i have said before, (and interpreted as a threat of death, that i should care) i will fight to the death to defend it.
i could explain further, but there is little prose for it...
i hope any mis-spellings are forgivin.

ROBERTACH!!

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Maleficent
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Postby Maleficent » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:04 pm

Tena Koe Phil

Cheers for the attempt at trying to address me properly :D

For one person you'd use koe
For two its korua
For three or more its koutou

So to address me in a formal manner would be Tena Koe Mel, as I addressed you - Tena Koe Phil.
If you wanted to list my clans/hapu then that would be

Tena Koe Mel no Hinetapora, no Rakairoa, no Ngai Taamanuhiri!!

Although I prefer it if you say

Tena Koe e wahine Maori o Te Po, no Hinetapora, no Rakairoa, no Ngai Taamanuhiri!


Hmm, I'll add more later ... one hint tho, for the

Ko Phil Toku Ingoa
Ko Ian Toku Papa
Ko Gerardine Toku Mama
Ko Uisge Taku Awa
Ko Benmor' Taku Maunga
Ko Robey Taku hapu
Ko 'Clan of the Gael' Taku Iwi.

bit you might want to use the 'toku' posessive when talking about your river, mountain and peoples ...
the 'o' in ;toku' implies that you are not greater than/do not own that thing but they are still yours, if you know what I mean ;) more a case of that you are theirs ...
http://aotearoa666.com/

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Postby / » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:53 pm

Ciamar a tha sibh a phil?, respect. i often react passionately for which i do not apologise. i don't think most maori would argue against historical research but i believe that this historical "theory" (not necessarily yours but the celtic aotearoa shit) is being used by anti tangata whenua "empire apologists" as a diversion and a shameless dodge to undermine (ahaha as if that's going to work) the just claim of maori to a fair deal and an honouring of the treaty signed in our names (although Queen Victoria and her genocidal thieving lackeys can rot in hell as far as i'm concerned). we seem to be in a sort of agreement on this i think.

good to see your interest in your ancestry and your people, many seem to believe association with your ethnic/cultural roots is devisive. i believe we are but links in a chain and i want to know about where i'm from and want my children to have this sense of connection also. good on you ;) i don't believe (as some seem to) that association, knowledge and love of ones cultural background means i cannot love all people regardless of their race/ethnicity/culture and i take people on a case by case basis anyway :)

kia ora mel, your point on the fluid nature of culture is a good one. it is undeniable that maori were the people of this land when pakeha arrived and continue to be tangata whenua regardless of the exact ethnic constituition of maori.

hmmmmm, time, need more so i can read this fuckn book and research the references and the authors.......it's going to be like doing a freaking essay or something.

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LegDog
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Postby LegDog » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:58 pm

So you managed to find it Phil?

One of the libraries at uni has it, but we can't take it out. I'm gunna have a read as soon as my course quietens down a bit. Busy times here at the moment.


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