Celtic New Zealand

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Maleficent
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Postby Maleficent » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:06 am

I went through those articles and found this :

Unfortunately utu begets utu and ultimately all Maori may lose face and mana as more damming reasons for revenge are found on behalf of the earlier Celtic settlers.

from http://www.kilts.co.nz/mhorruairidh.htm

I think that sums up the motivation behind these articles.

I've also read the www.zealand.org site before. It suggests things that may be possible but cannot substantiate their claims. Apparently the Celts 'may' have been here around the 12th century. It also draws some parallels between Maori and Celtic culture. Both tribal cultures. No surprise that they should have similarities - I made note of that when I was 16. Doesn't take a genius to work it out. We also have many more resonant similarities with Hawaiian, Tahitian, Samoan and cultures of the South Pacific in general.

Please take the time to read the lecture notes I posted in the sticky thread.

I think it is important to ask yourself why these people are pushing this Celtic thing. To me it seems like they want to discredit any claim Maori may have as First Peoples. It has already been established by the United Nations that Maori are the indigenous people of Aotearoa. Get over it.

To the extent that I see these articles touted again and again over various underground forums reminds me that we live in an incredibly unpleasant world where people will not accept any responsibility for the past, or blatantly make up stories to try and discredit thousands of years of history.

I'm not denying that there is a possibility this happened. It may well have. What I am saying is that the motivation behind these articles is anti-Maori. Promoting them is anti-Maori. I believe that is racism. If a person is so keen on claiming New Zealand as a "celtic" country to try and demean indigenous resistance struggles - I can't help them and refuse to.
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Postby samina » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:18 am

Here also another site to do with the Chinese coming to NZ to mine. Have a read and make up your own mind about the facts, also have good read of other pages in the site. http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/conte ... enceID=263
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Postby Maleficent » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:28 am

You got any articles about how aliens were here first, too?
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Postby nerdXcore » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:06 pm

I'm not denying that there is a possibility this happened. It may well have. What I am saying is that the motivation behind these articles is anti-Maori. Promoting them is anti-Maori


Or the motivation might be that people feel thier culture and heritage is being disregarded because of political motivations. I would have thought you would be the first person on here to understand that. To say that it may be possible and then to say you're going to blatantly disregard it because the united nations "says so", so "get over it", is blindly ignorant from someone who I thought was one of the least ignorant people on here.

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Postby Maleficent » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:35 pm

nerdXcore wrote:
I'm not denying that there is a possibility this happened. It may well have. What I am saying is that the motivation behind these articles is anti-Maori. Promoting them is anti-Maori


Or the motivation might be that people feel thier culture and heritage is being disregarded because of political motivations. I would have thought you would be the first person on here to understand that. To say that it may be possible and then to say you're going to blatantly disregard it because the united nations "says so", so "get over it", is blindly ignorant from someone who I thought was one of the least ignorant people on here.


After reading those articles, I highly doubt that. Read what I wrote earlier more closely. I realise it may confuse you somewhat.

I am not denying that there MAY have been earlier people here.
BUT MAORI ARE THE RECOGNISED INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF AOTEAROA. WE SIGNED A TREATY WHICH HAS BEEN DISHONOURED.

Why are these people so keen to disprove that? What is the aim here? Are they scared they are going to 'lose' something ?

Are these people trying to prove - like they do everytime someone comes out with the colonialist Moriori/Maruiwi myth - that IF Maori were not the first people here, then we too are therefore not a 'blameless' culture and are owed nothing?

That if Maori were not here first, pakeha do not need to listen or be tolerant of Maori people?

There is nothing in those articles to prove or disprove the Celtic/Chinese/Mauryan/Phonecian theories. They see a ring of stones and some idiot draws obvious conclusions that they look like stone rings back in the highlands - like Celts were the only people to ever arrange things in circles? What is this I read? A superiority complex, perhaps?

THOSE ARTICLES WERE WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO UNDERMINE MAORI.
IT IS ALL CONJECTURE. AS CONJECTURE, I SAY YES, IT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS ALSO ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT I AM THE GODDESS OF DEATH, WHILE WE ARE ABOUT IT.


But let's be pragmatic here.

There was a Declaration of Independence first. Then a Treaty, which has been dishonoured, is still being dishonoured, today.

Trying to undermine Maori by saying 'the Celts were here first, nyah, you don't have no rights and in fact owe us' is not the way to deal with cultural intolerance, bigotry and racism is it?
By saying that the Celts were here first, does that mean that gave Pakeha soldiers the right to kill and maim innocent women and children?
Is that enough recognition of 'heritage' for you?

It is very childish and a refusal of responsibility - which is the way stupid people deal with things. We should aspire to be People who want to work towards better communities or a better future for their children.

I think some of you *really* need to deal with your race issues - in particular your anti-Maori feelings.

And yes, I say again - Get Over it already!

:roll:
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Postby Snidekick » Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:31 am

Notice how the people that push these "Celtic NZ" theories are always of Celtic descent themselves. :roll: Sure they may have found some evidence of stone circles and such but then they jump to one of the least likely explanations possible.

The Celts didn't even make the stone circles in Britain they were made by a much earlier race of people. Why would the Celts come to New Zealand?Its about as far from their home as possible and choose to settle there rather than the countless places they could have settled on their long journey to NZ? The Celts weren't seafaring people, in fact a lot of the Celts were fearful and superstitious of the ocean, yet they somehow undertook a massive voyage using technology far before its time to travel to New Zealand and make a pile of stones.

The only thing that connects these archaeological sites with the Celts is the lineage of the Authors.

Who’s to say that the stone circles and mounds aren’t Maori in origin? Prehistoric Maori made some very impressive structures that would make the “celtic” stone structures look rather ordinary. Apparently some of the stones circles were arranged using advanced astronomy, Maori would have had to have been excellent astronomers to navigate the pacific and especially to early Maori, astronomy would have been very important to them.

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Postby Ph!1 » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:39 pm

samina wrote:What we need is to go to the places in NZ that are mentioned in the article and do a non biased, non political archeological dig and do some serious research.


i have contacted representatives from most of teh major archaelogical centres in the world, the response was 'we will verify when you pony up the dough' as yet no-one has had both the $$ and sufficent interest, and of course there is not one single qualified archaeologist in NZ (hence all discoveries being disregarded and wild crazy ideas being formulated)

for snidekick, you are as bad as the people who say that the celts did come here.

i am of celtic descent, and i do not believe that the celts ever came here, i dont dispel it, but there is no real evidence that they did, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, how ignorant is the statement that the celts were not a seafaring people? my god its fucking stagering, i cant even begin to refute such a stupid claim, go look up Kenneth MacAlpin, find out what what he was famous for, look up Somorled the Mighty, Admiral of the Western sea, i wonder how he cam by that title, can it be he founded it?

im pushing for objective research, my motivations are in no way anti-maori, only anti the people who prevent the research, it is, as i said earlier, their motivations which seek to deny the rights of others.

does anyone know why there is no qualified archaeologist in Aotearoa? it is because there is no Uni that teaches archaeology, why not? because NZ has no ancient history sad fact but this is the official line and until that is changed it is unlikely in the extreme that any unbiased research will be done, the cost being so enormously prohibitive.
there is not much more than rumour that there is an ancient history to research, this is because any evidence is destroyed and ignored, there are many people who have alot to lose with the end of the treaty process, and most of them aint maori (at least patriotically so) either.

i cant decide if the people who brang alot of these facts to light helped or hindered the cause of NZ archaeology with their wild assertations, putting 2 and 2 together and getting a celtic 5 has certainly destroyed any internation crediblity we ever had, yet there are still things to know...

sad

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Postby Duncan » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:10 pm

heh i thought this was bout celticfc fuck the huns :D
im of scotish and celtic decent but i dont really claim that this happened, reminds me of english (subject) analysing pointless stuff and drawing conclusions that should never have been drawn.

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Postby Snidekick » Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:34 pm

Wax wrote:for snidekick, you are as bad as the people who say that the celts did come here.

i am of celtic descent, and i do not believe that the celts ever came here, i dont dispel it, but there is no real evidence that they did, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, how ignorant is the statement that the celts were not a seafaring people? my god its fucking stagering, i cant even begin to refute such a stupid claim, go look up Kenneth MacAlpin, find out what what he was famous for, look up Somorled the Mighty, Admiral of the Western sea, i wonder how he cam by that title, can it be he founded it?


Puttering around the Orkney Isles and sailing to the farside of the earth are two very different things. Did the Celts have the want or the means to travel all that distance, at the time these people believe? Its unlikely.

My point is that the fact that these people have jumped to the most unlikely conclusion immediately, means they cannot be taken seriously. Their theories are fantasy and they are in no way objective.

History and especially alternative history fascinates me, I think there is a hell of a lot of Human history we don't know about. I would love there to see some objective research going on. Like you, I wouldn't discount it entirely but it is one of the least likely conclusions to be drawn from the evidence they have. They could have come forward and said "hey we have found some unusual structures and think they should be researched more thouroughly" but no all of a sudden its the Celts, coincidentally the ancestors of the Authors that were here first.

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Postby samina » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:21 am

Mel I want to know if you have any ancesters that are European e.g. Celtic or Anglo Saxon etc. ? If you do why are you dismissing the possibility that these cultures could've arived in New Zealand before the Maori. Aren't you being dis-respectful to those ancestors by saying what you are saying, and don't you think that your European ancestors deserve respect as well?


I don't think this country should be divided the way it is because there is no pure breed of race left in this country as we are all made up of many races. Like for myself I am Swedish, Jewish, French, Irish, Scottish and English and still researching.
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Postby martin » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:55 am

The treaty was signed in 1840 (?)

I think that all the arguements regarding it do need to be settled or else they will continue to go for another 100+ years. Is it fair that our generation continues to argue about it and worse still that generations in the future?

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Postby Maleficent » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:43 am

samina wrote:Mel I want to know if you have any ancesters that are European e.g. Celtic or Anglo Saxon etc. ? If you do why are you dismissing the possibility that these cultures could've arived in New Zealand before the Maori. Aren't you being dis-respectful to those ancestors by saying what you are saying, and don't you think that your European ancestors deserve respect as well?


I don't think this country should be divided the way it is because there is no pure breed of race left in this country as we are all made up of many races. Like for myself I am Swedish, Jewish, French, Irish, Scottish and English and still researching.


Samina, I've already said countless times that I have Irish Scottish and Dutch ancestry. These are from my ancestors who arrived here on whaling boats and jumped ship.

Read what I wrote earlier. More slowly.

Here it is again:

I am not denying that there MAY have been earlier people here.

BUT MAORI ARE THE RECOGNISED INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF AOTEAROA. WE SIGNED A TREATY WHICH HAS BEEN DISHONOURED.

Why are these people so keen to disprove that?

What is the aim here?

Are they scared they are going to 'lose' something ?

Are these people trying to prove - like they do everytime someone comes out with the colonialist Moriori/Maruiwi myth - that IF Maori were not the first people here, then we too are therefore not a 'blameless' culture and are owed nothing?

That if Maori were not here first, pakeha do not need to listen or be tolerant of Maori people?

There is nothing in those articles to prove or disprove the Celtic/Chinese/Mauryan/Phonecian theories. They see a ring of stones and some idiot draws obvious conclusions that they look like stone rings back in the highlands - like Celts were the only people to ever arrange things in circles?

What is this I read?

A superiority complex, perhaps?

THOSE ARTICLES WERE WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO UNDERMINE MAORI.
IT IS ALL CONJECTURE. AS CONJECTURE, I SAY YES, IT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS ALSO ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT I AM THE GODDESS OF DEATH, WHILE WE ARE ABOUT IT.


But let's be pragmatic here.

There was a Declaration of Independence first. Then a Treaty, which has been dishonoured, is still being dishonoured, today.

Trying to undermine Maori by saying 'the Celts were here first, nyah, you don't have no rights and in fact owe us' is not the way to deal with cultural intolerance, bigotry and racism is it?

By saying that the Celts were here first, does that mean that gave Pakeha soldiers the right to kill and maim innocent women and children?

Is that enough recognition of 'heritage' for you?

It is very childish and a refusal of responsibility - which is the way stupid people deal with things. We should aspire to be People who want to work towards better communities or a better future for their children.

I do not think I am being disrespectful. I think YOU are being disrespectful to an entire culture by trying to tell them that they are not the First Peoples of Aotearoa. That's just fucking rude.

And do not even think to ask me about my heritage. I refuse to discuss any whanau stories with someone like you. Don't you even fucking try and tell me about respecting my tupuna. You're asking for trouble on that one. That's just more rudeness.
I don't question you about your personal family life - I'll thank you not to question me about mine. Learn some fucking manners.

What you are doing is divisive. It also shows that you think through oneupmanship you can shut people like me the hell up then you won't have to ever worry about us brown folk ever again. that ain't gonna happen. Those articles are written by bigots and they are anti-Maori.

Some of us have already talked extensively about the nature of history as propaganda. If these people had perhaps written their articles in a less slanted vein, maybe I would be willing to believe it. But they aren't. Like Snidekick said :
Like you, I wouldn't discount it entirely but it is one of the least likely conclusions to be drawn from the evidence they have. They could have come forward and said "hey we have found some unusual structures and think they should be researched more thouroughly" but no all of a sudden its the Celts, coincidentally the ancestors of the Authors that were here first.


So whats your motive behind posting this stuff up, Samina?

Why do you so fervently believe that the Celts were here first?

Do you feel better about the oppression of Maori now?

Do you think dishonouring the Treaty was somehow justified now you can say that the Celts were here first?
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Postby LegDog » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:54 pm

What's going on here? We seem to be seeing a very different Mel here to the one of a couple of weeks ago who was very patient and respectful of the opinions of others.

Samina has done nothing wrong here in either

a) presenting this data, or
b) saying that people shouldn't be so quick to disregard it.

Yes, the people who originally did this more than likely did it to discredit or undermine Maori. But if they genuinely believe that they may have a certain claim to be the true original or indigenous people of the country (irrespective of whether another people are recognised as such or not), then surely they should be allowed to express them without being met with petty namecalling? The stone circles ere only a very small part of that story, yet it was chosen as the focal point of critics because it suits their purposes.

I'm growing very tired of implied racism as a means of silencing/villainising people and their opinions

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Postby samina » Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:25 pm

I'm starting to track down international Archeologists about these websites now because I am serious about getting the truth about these claims out into the open and I have also sent emails to as many MPs about these websites too so that some serious research into these claims be dealt with once and for all and especially this imformation on this page http://www.celticnz.co.nz/embargo_saga.html I've even sent an email to Archives NZ to get a copy of the 14 page Waipoua survey that has supposebly had a restriction for release until 2063 and if I get the standard letter that I cannot have it, I will send copies to the people that should see it, and questions asked why I cannot view the contents of the survey.

I truely think there is a glimmer of truth in these websites and if this Waipoua survey has a ban on release until 2063, what has been found there and what is it that the authorities trying to cover up and are they covering up something that might put the Maori land claims on a bad footing?


In all this, I'm playing the Devils Advocate and just want to get the truth out and some research done on what is in these websites and if people don't like the idea of research being done, they are the ones that are worried about what they might lose.
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Postby The Ost » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:23 pm

I think they should just wait until they sort out the disagreements with the Treaty....
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Postby nerdXcore » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:39 pm

What's going on here?


Didn't you know that encouraging any non-maori culture is racist and anti-maori? :roll:

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Postby Maleficent » Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:06 pm

LegDog wrote:What's going on here? We seem to be seeing a very different Mel here to the one of a couple of weeks ago who was very patient and respectful of the opinions of others.


Who the fuck are you to tell me what I'm about?
Maybe I'm sick to death of seeing this Celtic bullshit, and I'm not afraid to say so.
Don't you fucking try and tell me what being patient and respectful to the opinions of others is. You could at least try and understand how INSULTING you are being towards me.
Patronising me will not work.

Seeing this kind of crap posted on an underground message board REALLY FUCKS ME OFF.

AND I AM GOING TO SAY SO

AGAIN AND FUCKING AGAIN IF I HAVE TO.

Samina has done nothing wrong here in either

a) presenting this data, or
b) saying that people shouldn't be so quick to disregard it.


Samina has

a) implied that I may be disrespecting my ancestors

Which makes this personal. There is no way I can respect any data she puts forth, because she thinks its okay to cross boundaries and ask me questions about my personal background in a particulary impolite way.

Thats just fucking insulting. One thing that makes me REALLY angry is some smarmy git who thinks they can call me out on my whanau.
I refuse to be patient or tolerant towards that person.

Yes, the people who originally did this more than likely did it to discredit or undermine Maori.


Exactly. My whole point. Thank you for at least understanding that much.

But if they genuinely believe that they may have a certain claim to be the true original or indigenous people of the country (irrespective of whether another people are recognised as such or not), then surely they should be allowed to express them without being met with petty namecalling? The stone circles ere only a very small part of that story, yet it was chosen as the focal point of critics because it suits their purposes.


The only reason they believe they have a claim is to deny Maori of their claims.
There's no way I can take ANY of it seriously.

If you think my saying that these people are bigots is 'petty namecalling' well, I don't care. I also call a spade a spade.

I'm growing very tired of implied racism as a means of silencing/villainising people and their opinions


I wasn't implying it. I was straight out saying it.

These articles were written by racists.

Their motive is racism.

Their goal is racist.

Therefore, through the powers of logic and rationality, to promote them is racist.
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Postby Maleficent » Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:07 pm

nerdXcore wrote:
What's going on here?


Didn't you know that encouraging any non-maori culture is racist and anti-maori? :roll:


Don't try and twist my words you fucking idiot. Get a fucking grip.
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Postby * » Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:10 pm

Mel wrote:
nerdXcore wrote:
What's going on here?


Didn't you know that encouraging any non-maori culture is racist and anti-maori? :roll:


Don't try and twist my words you fucking idiot. Get a fucking grip.


i second that aye, she never implied that anywhere. Fuck I'm getting sick of this bullshit.

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Postby LegDog » Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:23 am

Mel wrote:These articles were written by racists.

Their motive is racism.

Their goal is racist.

Therefore, through the powers of logic and rationality, to promote them is racist.


Oh my god. If you say "You're either for us or against us", I'm gunna scream...

If you refuse to have an open mind because it suits your own purposes, that's your problem. I'll leave you to it...

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Postby The Ost » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:04 am

LegDog wrote:
Mel wrote:These articles were written by racists.

Their motive is racism.

Their goal is racist.

Therefore, through the powers of logic and rationality, to promote them is racist.


Oh my god. If you say "You're either for us or against us", I'm gunna scream...

If you refuse to have an open mind because it suits your own purposes, that's your problem. I'll leave you to it...


bro it has nothing to do with that..... do you want MORE disputes about who's owed what? as I said leave it till the Treaty issues are solved, then we know these people's intentions are genuine.
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Postby Maleficent » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:23 am

Thank You Ost 8)

and Kia Ora Carlton ~ cheers 8)
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Postby samina » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:45 am

The website about the Chinese being in NZ mining is not even a NZer, he is an English person. He has nothing to gain to discredit the Maoris, he is more interested in the Chinese and how they traveled around the world settling in countries and discovering things. It just happens to be that part of his findings is that the Chinese might have settled in NZ in the years BC.
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Postby Ph!1 » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:57 am

Mel wrote:THOSE ARTICLES WERE WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO UNDERMINE MAORI.


not all, it is a much olDer claims

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Postby nerdXcore » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:00 pm

Don't try and twist my words you fucking idiot. Get a fucking grip


Geez calm down. Sorry I'm just trying to point out your complete ignorance. I find it amazing you know that the people who wrote the articles are racist having never even met them before. Like I said before, perhaps they feel their culture is being marginalised because of political motives.

If you refuse to have an open mind because it suits your own purposes, that's your problem.


I second THAT.

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Postby Maleficent » Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:16 pm

If you read the articles you would have realised how full of bigoted rhetoric they were.

I find them incredibly offensive and refuse to tolerate them.

Calling me ignorant is not going to make you look clever.

Trying to tell me to calm down about offensive material is not going to get you anywhere.

I've often posted on this board that I draw the line at tolerating bigots - these sites ARE OFFENSIVE AND RACIST.

I WILL NOT TOLERATE THEM.
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Postby / » Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:27 pm

nerdXcore wrote:
Don't try and twist my words you fucking idiot. Get a fucking grip


Geez calm down. Sorry I'm just trying to point out your complete ignorance.
man you are the ignorant one if you think celts had a: the technology and b: the knowledge of global geography to make it down here in the 12th century.

you fuckn cock.
Last edited by / on Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby two_days_late » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:21 pm

you used to goto lytton aye mel. some chicks at skool know you. totally off topic but to bad.
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Postby Ace McWicked » Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:16 pm

I have always been interested in the whole Celtic heritage thing. I am Irish-English and many of my anceastors come from 'Celtic' stock. The thing is, I live in New Zealand. I and friends with New Zealanders. My heritage then, for all intents and practical purposes should be and is, New Zealand. New Zealand is a Pacific Island nation and we live amongst a lot of Pacific Island people. It used to bug me at my school when they would try and ram all the Irish crap down my throat when I know damn well my anceastors left Ireland because it was a shit-hole.
I know this isn't the case for everyone but I though I'd add this as it seemed relevant.

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Postby nerdXcore » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:18 pm

If you read the articles you would have realised how full of bigoted rhetoric they were


I did read the articles, I thought they were pretty interesting and I wouldn't completely write them off. Just because it may be true I don't believe will have any impact on Maori and the treaty, I think you misunderstand these peoples intentions. I say you're ignorant because you completely disregard a possible historical truth simply because you think that if it is true it will undermine your heritage. I find those articles no less bigoted than some of the totally biased pro-maori articles you post.

man you are the ignorant one if you think celts had a: the technology and b: the knowledge of global geography to make it down here in the 12th century.


I never said I believed it was true, I said it might be. Would I be ignorant to think the ancient Egyptians had the technology and engineering skills to build the pyramids?


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