Celtic New Zealand

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Postby / » Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:07 pm

LegDog wrote:So you managed to find it Phil?
nah haven't had the time, fuckn work :roll: so it may take a while but it will happen. shouldn't even be up now on the fuckn interweb ;)

Mar sin leibh

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Postby Maleficent » Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:37 am

Kia Ora ano Phil Robey of Clova ... I thought I would take a bit more time to go through what you had written now there is less going on around me ...

Wax wrote:yeh racist maori of the ilk i described are both very intimidating to a skinny red haired white boy on his own, and very fuckin stupid and the equivilent of a racist 'white power' bonehead. so i dont judge all Maori activists by them, but unfortunatly ive met so many racists and bully types wearing the flag of Maori sovereignity on a Tshirt that it takes away alot from a cause i could concievably support..


Racist Maori are intimidating to a brown girl too, bro ... and I see no difference between them and a white power bonehead. Luckily I've never crossed paths in real life with a full on 'Maori activist' type (although some would describe me as one) who would bully me because of my 'soft' attitudes towards Pakeha (I can't take a hardline approach - I am Pakeha too and I ain't gonna deny it). Thankfully. I guess you could describe my sentiments as 'progressive' even though I shrink from describing myself in political terms.
I have met plenty of racist Maori and it fucks me right off.

Wax wrote: certainly most the people i know who have an intelligent opinion yet still dont agree with land rights, are not going to benefit themselves and perhaps take a simaler view to the Propaghandi quote that Al posted above...


yeh that quote was nice if we wanted to simplify everything. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. I think for most people its easier to get there through your own tikanga, whakapapa and whanau. Like Phil Cameron of Erracht mentioned, I believe it ain't a bad thing to know your own connections.

Wax wrote:as for the 'pseudo-historians' i wont agree that they were written with overt racism in mind, of course we must specify arguments and articles when we talk of this, which i dont have time for, i havnt read any of these articles in fucking years, not since i got kicked out of a very pertinant archaeological internet group for bringing up these historical anomilies then arguing forcefuly-getting angry and using bad words- for investigation by internationaly recognised archaeologists to come here, and authenticate findings.


What I have read of those articles fills me with disgust - as you would have seen throughout this thread. You may not choose to agree that they were written with overt racism in mind - but insidious racism is just as bad to me. If I absolutely have to, I will go over those articles and nit-pick. But you're going to be dealing with screamo-Mel on the boards cos that shit just plain fucks me off. And I wanna be :twisted: not :evil: :!:

Wax wrote:i agree that culture is dynamic and everchanging, a growing thing, i think that maybe Maori, at least as a name are a later addition to a culture that was ever growing, a warrior class that came and took over a people previously here, perhaps a more advanced people who knows...


Well, that entirely depends on how you view the migrations that occurred here. I've noted in other threads where pre-European history has been brought up, that some people whakapapa back to their maunga and so therefore claim they have been here forever, they never came from Hawaiiki. A more believable claim is that these supposed great canoe migrations didn't occur - rather that a whole lot of peoples from different parts of the Pacific sailed here and populated these isles, all at different times.

One thing you have to remember is that 'Maori' as we know them today never considered themselves as 'one people' untill the Pakeha arrived and they chose names to differentiate. As far as my tupuna were concerned, back in the day, other tribes were foreigners and we never acted as a 'nation'. All political systems were based around the hapu model - something that many Maori today are trying to reclaim, as opposed to being lumped under one homogenous 'tribal runanga'.
I guess I wrote that to try and point out that yes, it is totally conceivable that other peoples were here. But in doing so, it is also possible that what we know of as Maori today are these people's descendants.

I mean, you only have to look at early carvings and cave paintings to realise this. They were quite different to what we know of as being 'traditional' carvings and images. I could probably dig out some more anthro notes and bore you all to tears but I won't.

phil wrote:kia ora mel, your point on the fluid nature of culture is a good one. it is undeniable that maori were the people of this land when pakeha arrived and continue to be tangata whenua regardless of the exact ethnic constituition of maori.


Cheers Phil :D I really like what you wrote about being links in a chain ...
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Postby Ph!1 » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:36 pm

phil wrote:Ciamar a tha sibh a phil?,
i dont speak any Gaelic, mores the pity.
Mel wrote:I've noted in other threads where pre-European history has been brought up, that some people whakapapa back to their maunga and so therefore claim they have been here forever, they never came from Hawaiiki. A more believable claim is that these supposed great canoe migrations didn't occur - rather that a whole lot of peoples from different parts of the Pacific sailed here and populated these isles, all at different times.

yes this is something i find very interesting, and as far as i am concerned is being overshadowed by the current political climate, i think its as silly to assume that the Maori are one people who came here approx 800 years ago from Hawaiiki, as it is to assume that since there are remnants of stone buildings and astrologically aligned circles, that the builders must have been celts..
but of course neither is as silly as refusing to acknowedge the existance of such, and until our government recognises that NZ has an anthropological pre-history, there will be lots of this silly crap and self-appointed 'experts' putting 2 and 2 to gether to make 5.

those sites in question were not the ones that made be believe that there is credibility to the claim of an Ancient Aotearoa, but they have brought attention to it, indeed i first became interested when i heard of 'Celtic NZ' as foolish a concept as it is, much the same as Blink182 sometimes get people into punkrock :wink:

so heres to shit getting sorted, theres certainly lots of crap hindering it in the likes of Don Brash, but almost weekly i hear another story about a govt funded-maori only scheme that raises an uproar from conservative middle class people who feel they are missing out on something, Maori push for these things little realising(or maybe just not caring) about the division it causes.

i suppose if they can keep us diverted fighting each other, we as a nation wont ever wake up to the myriad social, political and economic crimes being perpetuated against us all regardless of race or culture...

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Postby Maleficent » Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:08 pm

Tena Koe Phil R
aera, I agree that our pre-European history is much more exciting than what we have been led to believe. The only problem with anthropologists is that they often go into their research with prejudices in the first place ... there's that book The Future Eaters which blandly assumes that we were all a pack of unenlightened savages and doesn't offer any new light on the subject ... the excerpts I've read have been incredibly fustrating. That's something that you have to watch - most NZ history (with few notable exceptions) is written from a colonial standpoint and often perpetuates oppression of Maori. I know lots of people ain't gonna like me saying that, but one major characteristic of a colonial/imperial viewpoint is to judge another culture from a foreign (as in outsider and not neutral) perspective. Usually one steeped in delusions of superiority.

those sites in question were not the ones that made be believe that there is credibility to the claim of an Ancient Aotearoa, but they have brought attention to it, indeed i first became interested when i heard of 'Celtic NZ' as foolish a concept as it is, much the same as Blink182 sometimes get people into punkrock


hmm, thats interesting Phil - I'd like to read those sites. I certainly believe that there were very ancient settlers/inhabitants/tangata whenua of Aotearoa. To be perfectly honest, when you read or hear histories have you ever noticed how many gaps there are? It seems like there are thousands of years missing, in between Gondwanaland and how Aotearoa developed ... I dunno, something I was musing over while watching some Wild South doco the other day.
Heh, I like the Blink 182 quip ... the same could be said of the Cult sometimes getting people into gothic rock :D

so heres to shit getting sorted, theres certainly lots of crap hindering it in the likes of Don Brash, but almost weekly i hear another story about a govt funded-maori only scheme that raises an uproar from conservative middle class people who feel they are missing out on something, Maori push for these things little realising(or maybe just not caring) about the division it causes.


I would toast to shit being sorted too, but I got a bad feeling in my gut that shit is going to get worse. The foreshore and seabed are being expropriated. We are being dictated to by the Crown again.
The only good thing is that Brash's popularity has dropped a bit - although I haven't checked the opinion polls lately, but thats the last I heard.
Then you got the media on our backs - as you noted there is always some story floating around about some Maori business going under, some sort of government funding debacle gone wrong or whatever. Whenever I see that, I notice we never hear about any other businesses going wrong - always the Maori ones. I wish people would consider why that is. Most of the media in this country is heavily anti-Maori. You see it in the cartoon portrayal of Maori in the papers, in editorials, in the letters they publish. Anti-Maori this, anti-Maori that. Luckily now that Maori TV is up and running, TV3 has been getting (ever so slightly) better with coverage of the "issues" - maybe that will help.

The uproar that usually comes from conservative middle classes in New Zealand cracks me up. There always was a huge division anyway; many just don't like it pointed out to them that we do not live in a utopian society. This is not the GodZone/Middle Earth that is touted overseas. New Zealand is a racist country and raises its children to be so - no matter what class you come from.

i suppose if they can keep us diverted fighting each other, we as a nation wont ever wake up to the myriad social, political and economic crimes being perpetuated against us all regardless of race or culture...


Most defintely! That is the whole idea.

fuck that was a bit of babble ...

anyway, I was reading this link off anarchism.org (had a sneaky look at Ratty's signature) today - thought I'd share it ...
Tino Rangatiratanga and Capitalism
http://aotearoa666.com/

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Postby aoxist » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:25 pm

Mel wrote:I have met plenty of racist Maori and it fucks me right off.

maori can't be racist, only whites can. if you don't like it, get the - out of aotearoa!

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Postby Maleficent » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:38 pm

what the hell are you on about?
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Postby Ace McWicked » Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:38 pm

I would ignore it if I were you Mel, it will probably go away.
Racism is probably just as bad with Maori as it is with Pakeha, I wouldn't have any statistics to back this up but it stands to reason given there is nothing 'gene determinate' about stupidity. It is the difference between cultural pride and racial chauvanism. It is also interesting to note in a lot of cultures who are down-drodden, or have been, that a sort of 'fortress mentality' can develop which borders on racism. I use the Koreans as an example as it is a bit more neutral in this debate. For centuries they have been the door-mat of Asia, a pathway for the Manchu's to Japan and more recently the Japanese into China. In recent times they have had their national identity dictated by The US in the south and China in the North. You are never going to meet a more patriotic race of people, with a love of their country which seems to border on one eyed fanatacism. The nasty flipside of this, and because of their history, is it amounts to a distaste for foreigners.

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Postby samina » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:09 am

I emailed my Dad to see if he has seen anything in his work as a Forest Ranger and He did in Mangawhai Forest. This is what he put in the return email to me about it.


"I found some writing in a cave at Mangawhai Forest which I reported to the authorities but my memo was not replied to , so I guess it also was not wanted to be made public. (The writings were in a red ochre or paint and were of a foreign language and barely readable. I thought they may have been Spanish). The shallow cave was in the cliff at the northern end of the beach."

He was the ranger there in the late 60s.
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Re: Celtic New Zealand

Postby 9seconds » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:32 pm

well im embarrassed by some of my old opinions, but i wasnt a total dick...
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Re: Celtic New Zealand

Postby the croc » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:28 pm

PunkAs is essentially now just an archive of everyone's embarrassing old opinions. We're all in the same boat Phil.
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Re: Celtic New Zealand

Postby PertHJ » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:35 am

I think the build up of terrible opinions over the years have helped to keep everyone away from punkas, and our secrets safe.
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Re: Celtic New Zealand

Postby 9seconds » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:35 pm

Mel seems to have come out OK, im pretty much entirely in favour of the Tangata Whenua perspective on this, have been for a long time now, i think this conversation, and then later when Martin Dupre came out in open support of the National Front is what changed my mind about the motivations behind this shit.

its a fascinating idea tho, compelling, if i dont die before my bones start rattling i would love to write a book based on this concept, as an alternate reality thing, and in the style of Bernard Cornwell, about the conflicts between peoples, but always showing the human side of both.
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