Old AFI albums

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Fiction & Falsehood
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:53 pm

BroAsHeaps wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:
Why would god genocide (kill) humanity (his children) with his “great flood” before he presented the 10 commandments to his children? He killed us for breaking rules that he never gave us! Why? Is that love?

something to think about


So your telling me that your consience isnt enough to enable you to distinguish right from wrong? You need someone to tell you?

um what? im not the one that blindly follows religious and secular laws regardless of ethics or morality, that my funny faced wee friend, is you.
what did they do to make god wipe them all out apart from noah and his flock?
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby BroAsHeaps » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:53 pm

akaxo wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:
Why would god genocide (kill) humanity (his children) with his “great flood” before he presented the 10 commandments to his children? He killed us for breaking rules that he never gave us! Why? Is that love?

something to think about
easy. god's a cunt.


For someone to be a 'cunt' denotes they are capable of being and doing something, and in order to do something, its implied that the being in question would exist.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby aerozol » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:53 pm

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Note: I'm enjoying this thread now that it got back on track (eg back to going nowhere)
Last edited by aerozol on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby aerozol » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:54 pm

oops, double post

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:06 pm

God puts the tree of knowledge (setting the stage for downfall) in Eden and warns Adam and Eve not to eat the delicious fruit (already knowing the outcome) but purposely fails to warn his newborns about satan the talking and dangerous snake! A&E were only helpless babies who were set up to fail! Questions: What kind of father would do that…especially when knowing the outcome? Why would he do that? Why did god put satan on Earth? Why didn’t God just destroy Satan? Is humanity just a game to your god?
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby aerozol » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:38 pm

BroAsHeaps wrote:So your telling me that your consience isnt enough to enable you to distinguish right from wrong? You need someone to tell you?
From the guy who picks B out these two:
A. Don't give band money
B. Give band money

:lol:

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:24 pm

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby PertHJ » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:46 am

the croc wrote:Drove past past St Andrew's Church in New Plymouth today:

"Evolution? How are there still apes?"

/Facepalm


:wtf:
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby xCaptainx » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:34 pm

BroAsHeaps wrote:So your telling me that your consience isnt enough to enable you to distinguish right from wrong? You need someone to tell you?



I havent read this thread at all, but I'm guessing your religious. Your statement there seemed a bit confusing, considering the majority of theists believe in objective moral values, and state that this cannot exist without a creator who instilled these, or 'told us' what they were.

So as a Theist you're telling us you don't need someone to tell you what is right from wrong? Cause that's exactly what every non theist has been saying all along :lol:

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby ghetto ninja » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:48 pm

Was a troll Ross. Youre a bit late to the party. Its Benjamin Thiele of the False Start thread.
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby xCaptainx » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:22 pm

damn. Missed the lolls.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby ghetto ninja » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:24 pm

They werent false.
Martyrdamn wrote:Said 'hey baby gurl' to about seven girls tonight,
turns out girls don't like guys talking about getting up in their guts,
fagets, right.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:26 am

ghetto ninja wrote:Was a troll Ross. Youre a bit late to the party. Its Benjamin Thiele of the False Start thread.



wait...how do we know exactly it is him?

i might have missed that part.
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby BroAsHeaps » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:37 pm

xCaptainx wrote:
BroAsHeaps wrote:So your telling me that your consience isnt enough to enable you to distinguish right from wrong? You need someone to tell you?



I havent read this thread at all, but I'm guessing your religious. Your statement there seemed a bit confusing, considering the majority of theists believe in objective moral values, and state that this cannot exist without a creator who instilled these, or 'told us' what they were.

So as a Theist you're telling us you don't need someone to tell you what is right from wrong? Cause that's exactly what every non theist has been saying all along :lol:


Not at all. Actually, based on Genesis, Humans are created in the image of God. Now in our western mindset, most people interpret this to be physically. But actually, the word that 'image' was translated from (tselem) means alot more. We are made in his image not only physically, but mentally, emotionally, etc. Which means our conscience, to a certain point, also reflects Gods moral standard. This is why children, up until an age where they are influenced by a secular society, instinctively know its wrong to lie, steal etc. God gave his law to the Jews because most of them ignored their conscience and did the wrong thing anyway, so God re-enforced his moral standard through the Judaic law, which is where Judeo-Christian morality originated from.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby xCaptainx » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:00 pm

Don't have too much time but,

Firstly, does our conscience reflects Gods moral standard, or does man made 'God moral standard' reflects our conscience? I would have thought the very notion of Atheists and non Judeo-Christian theist, deist or mono-theist beliefs (to which there have been a fair few) would disprove the notion of Christian objective moral values. One only has to read the Koran to find multiple examples of acts that western civilisation would find abhorrent and without morality.

Secondly, lets not forget the morality of an all knowing Christian god. Is God acting morally when allowing millions to die without even knowing about him? Or watching Elisabeth Fritzl suffer for nearly 30 years? Not only watching, but allowing it, approving the action as the ends justify the means. Also a God who demands you love him, obey him, follow him, serve him or burn in hell for all eternity? To steal a Hitchens phrase, what is moral about a celestial dictatorship? How is that 'free'? Love me or die? Worship me or die. How on earth is such a theist believe an absolute, objective moral belief?

Thirdly, Some children do not instinctively know it's wrong, even without mental or learning disabilities. In fact it's perfectly 'natural' to lie. Sam Harris wrote a book about this very issue. Darren Browne is a popular mentalist who has a few youtube videos up about young childrens willingness to lie and hide their wrongdoings. That statement is false.

I believe that morality/conscience will eventually be proven scientifically as a purely non-supernatural system. Studies are already showing 'moral' selfless actions within wildlife which can be viewed as basic, pack-survival methods. It's only a matter of time before science proves this. I'm looking forward to seeing how theists react to this.

Some of these arent actual hard 'opinions' of mine, but are good points to consider if you're going to be attempting to enforce the notion of an objective moral value, especially a theist one. Something I think you'd find extremely difficult to achieve.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby arkie » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:15 pm

good post, agree.

I always find it hard not to scoff when people say that we need god to give us morality, especially from christians, who seem to think that all the laws of the country directly correspond to the ten commandments. Not murdering, and not stealing are the only ones that are really enshrined, and then there is the ol' 'thou shalt not commit adultery' chestnut.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby xCaptainx » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:22 pm

Plus once you get down to it, most arguments can just be clever wordplay.

To steal a William Lane Craig point and flip it around; when a Lion kills a Zebra, it's not murder. So what is murder? If I was to kill a home invader, is this not a needless death or simply survival? If I knowingly kill this man knowing that if I dont, he will kill me. Is this murder or self defence? Does God take our courts findings into account, or our definition of 'murder' or 'manslaughter' when deciding my taking of another mans life was moral (christian moral) or not? Our definition of murder is simply our inept awareness of our own conscience and our attempt at understanding it.

Unfortunately it's quick to slide into silly word games when discussing this subject. Especially when trying to argue a supernatural explanation.

Theist or not, I don't believe objective morality is possible, or a purely religious notion. I can accept and understand quite a lot of theist/deist claims, but find the notion of objective moral values extremely difficult to comprehend. Especially when modern science is in its infancy and we continue to find out fascinating things about our how brains truly work.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby arkie » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:31 pm

Totally agree,
if there is common thread running through human morality it is that seems to be a complex version of the behaviour of social species. CBF finding the article but recent studies have found a behaviour in some monkeys that seems to demonstrate a concept of 'fairness'.

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby xCaptainx » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Yup the study I referred too was a similar study in birds. I cant remember the species *edit* page 251 of The God Delusion, the chapter 'The Roots of Morality: Why are we good?' *

Also briefly referenced here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#History

This looks like a good read too, havent gone through it yet.

http://www.dinelestirisi.com/faydali-ka ... an-origin/

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:46 pm

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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:48 pm

so .... is this REALLY the guy from false start?

and is he a chrizzo?

or is he trolling?

and if it him and he not trolling .... :baton:

how do we know its him again?
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:11 pm

logan said
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:20 pm

yeah i saw that

but how he know
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:01 pm

hes logan
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:07 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:hes logan


ah gotcha - that explains it

thanks for that
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:28 pm

xCaptainx wrote:To steal a William Lane Craig point and flip it around; when a Lion kills a Zebra, it's not murder. So what is murder? If I was to kill a home invader, is this not a needless death or simply survival? If I knowingly kill this man knowing that if I dont, he will kill me. Is this murder or self defence? Does God take our courts findings into account, or our definition of 'murder' or 'manslaughter' when deciding my taking of another mans life was moral (christian moral) or not? Our definition of murder is simply our inept awareness of our own conscience and our attempt at understanding it


most christians believe in some kind of supreme court in heaven, tho theres not much to back this up in the bible, a couple of oblique references to 'gods justice' at best.
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court itself is very much a christian idea, in the early days of christian expansion churches were the only courts, what better place than to be seen by god saying his holy truth? -of course usurping the tribal leaders of one of their greatest forms of power over their people, but thats another story.
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modern courts hold quite a bit of resemblance to an altar, in place of the high priest sitting in judgement, you have a magistrate.
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these ideas are promoted in tracts, watchtowers, any sort of christian writing, television shows and movies, how many times did touched by an angel feature courtroom scenes or repentant criminals?
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http://www.touched.com/episodeguide/seasonnine/918.html

the 'christian' idea of morality is a messed up scary place, it does not rely on the bible, much of its rights and wrongs are drawn directly from other fantasy writings...
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby the croc » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:17 pm

Yep I don't think anyone can really pinpoint "Christian Morality" as any one thing because the Bible crosses pretty much every moral spectrum. You can cherry pick what you like to back up any position you feel like taking on any one day.

The old testament teaches 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' while in the new testament Jesus says 'when somebody smites you turn the other cheek.' How far you follow either piece of dogma comes down to how much of a cunt you really are inside and has fuck all to do with religion. Thus Christians calling the bible a basis for morality is :crazy:
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:23 pm

fuck i was stoned when i wrote that, those pictures were meant to convey much deeper meanings than they apparently do, lol.
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby Phlegm » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:00 am

the croc wrote:
The old testament teaches 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' while in the new testament Jesus says 'when somebody smites you turn the other cheek.' How far you follow either piece of dogma comes down to how much of a cunt you really are inside and has fuck all to do with religion. Thus Christians calling the bible a basis for morality is :crazy:


The old testament relates more to Judaism than Christianity.
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Re: Old AFI albums

Postby the croc » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:04 am

Phlegm wrote:
the croc wrote:
The old testament teaches 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' while in the new testament Jesus says 'when somebody smites you turn the other cheek.' How far you follow either piece of dogma comes down to how much of a cunt you really are inside and has fuck all to do with religion. Thus Christians calling the bible a basis for morality is :crazy:


The old testament relates more to Judaism than Christianity.


Tell that to a fundamentalist Christian
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