Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:29 pm

^ p.much
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:15 pm

so the real problem isnt with rapists its with liars, since an honest rapist would be prosecuted and none of these defenses would be used.
likewise there would be no false/revenge accusations.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:26 pm

mmmm.. well that's a part of it - I may be totally out of line because I'm trying to describe how these phenomena don't necessarily boil down to the conscious and deliberate choices, from either party. though it often does, my opinion is that much of what we do is not actually a conscious choice, so I'm trying to put forward the notion that people's perspectives do shape how they interpret events, in such a way that coercive sex occurs because people simply allow it to.

Ugh, I realise that sounds pretty loopy, but that's why I posted the link to that book earlier. i'm not sure how much you can read of it online (or if anyone can be fucked), but it critiques and deconstructions the social norms around sex, heterosex and rape, and I think its worthy to consider and be able to reflect on how our beliefs around rape and sex are.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:35 pm

no i agree with you, certainly i learnt the hard way just how easy it is for 'rape' to occur and not have the faintest idea, also id really like to see people actively differentiating between violent rape and 'coercive sex' they are not the same thing any more than punching somebody in the head is the same as caving it in with a hammer.

and in many cases, women DO need to accept responsibility for what happens to them, crying rape cos you regret it later, or didnt really want to but were too drunk/stupid/intimidated/peer pressured to say no, is just as fucked up as a guy blaming a girl for being raped cos of the way she dresses.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Tartanperil » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:46 pm

Matt wrote:
Tartanperil wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:... as far as 'she came on to me' that could surely be evidence that the sex was consensual

I fail to see how "she came on to me" can be evidence that sex was consensual?.


It doesn't have to be under law - for a 'not guilty' verdict, it just has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the accused had valid reason to believe there was consent. That's why all that kind of stuff gets wheeled out.

It is an incredibly tricky thing to judge on because, generally speaking, you have only the accused and the alleged victim present and you are looking for evidence of what they were thinking.

I hear what you're saying, but "she came on to me" is never even an indication that sex was consensual (ie a person can come on to another person as much as they like without in any way implying consent to have sex), hence in itself it should not a defense.





Anyway tomorrow's march is about saying that someone has the right to dress as they choose without it being an excuse for being raped.

I'm 100% good with that and will be heading along tomorrow.


.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:56 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote: also id really like to see people actively differentiating between violent rape and 'coercive sex' they are not the same thing any more than punching somebody in the head is the same as caving it in with a hammer.

ah-HA! but you see, that's the sort of distinction the book goes into, where the author follows the theory and research to the point where a critique of heterosex places it as having much of the same qualities of rape! :baton:

the book's pretty reflective I should add, it understands and explains that there is a qualitative leap you have to make in order to directly link the two, but the the reasoning that go into the critiques is interesting to say the least
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:02 pm

Tartanperil wrote:
Tartanperil wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:... as far as 'she came on to me' that could surely be evidence that the sex was consensual

I fail to see how "she came on to me" can be evidence that sex was consensual?.


I hear what you're saying, but "she came on to me" is never even an indication that sex was consensual (ie a person can come on to another person as much as they like without in any way implying consent to have sex), hence in itself it should not a defense.

look mate, you moan when others crop your quotes, i said that 'she came on to me' could surely be evidence that the sex was consensual if there were witnesses, dont manipulate what im saying to make it look as if im saying something else.

and the rest of what you said is frankly nonsense, how else do you 'imply consent' other than by making it clear you want to have sex with that person, which is what 'coming on' to somebody means... wtf?
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:11 pm

i always thought 'coming on to someone' meant flirting. sex could be implied, but not necessarily so.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Matt » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:20 pm

That little 'to' is awfully important, I guess.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:21 pm

oh yah
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:24 pm

really? i thought flirting was flirting, 'coming on' implies touching and shit, like a chick coming on to you is basically climbing on you and saying 'do you have any condoms?'

perhaps we need to define these terms before we argue about them.

also evidence ≠ proof, just cos a person came onto another, doesnt mean it didnt go wrong later, i wasnt saying it can be PROOF that it wasnt rape, just evidence.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:33 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:really? i thought flirting was flirting, 'coming on' implies touching and shit, like a chick coming on to you is basically climbing on you and saying 'do you have any condoms?'

yeah dude I've have always used it, and heard it used, in reference to flirting.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:35 pm

well if thats the case then what tartanperil says doesnt seem so fuckin crazy.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby bridge. » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:19 pm

"coming on to someone" implies a particularly aggressive form of flirting in my view.

It seems to me like there are some people out there who think women can absolve themselves of all responsibility when it comes to date rape. And that to me is just absolute horseshit. Coming on to someone, in my opinion, is definitely evidence enough to suggest sex might have been consensual.

Women aren't exactly renowned for being straight-up, and they can't expect men to guess what they are thinking at all times. Women should really own up to the fact that they can send a lot of mixed messages out, whether they necessarily intend to or not. This issue is especially complicated by the fact that the predominant message out there is that women want a man who will be dominant - apparently confirmed by things like 50 shades of grey and every single mills & boon in existence.

Sex should be a two way conversation, and we should be teaching people to be very clear and open about what they mean. We're not in high-school anymore, and no one can assume that people will tip-toe delicately toward sex like we're all still scared or unsure of it.

Seriously...some women fuck me off so much, I'm surprised men bother with us at all.

/end of rant

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:23 pm

if i could flip a switch id have gone gay a long time ago.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby combatrock » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:49 pm

Matt wrote:
Tartanperil wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:... as far as 'she came on to me' that could surely be evidence that the sex was consensual

I fail to see how "she came on to me" can be evidence that sex was consensual?.


It doesn't have to be under law - for a 'not guilty' verdict, it just has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the accused had valid reason to believe there was consent. That's why all that kind of stuff gets wheeled out.

It is an incredibly tricky thing to judge on because, generally speaking, you have only the accused and the alleged victim present and you are looking for evidence of what they were thinking.


Hate to be all lawyerish on this, but that's a bit inaccurate. The defence doesn't have to prove anything. The prosecution has to establish beyond reasonable doubt (which means that the jury/judge has to be sure) that the crime was committed. In terms of what the prosecution has to prove for the alleged offender's mental state, basically one of these two questions has to be answered yes -

- Are you sure that the accused did not believe that the complainant was consenting?
- Are you sure that at the time sexual intercourse occurred no reasonable person in the accused's position could have believed that the complainant was consenting?


Happy to be corrected by some lawyer types.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Red_switch » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:40 pm

bridge. wrote:"coming on to someone" implies a particularly aggressive form of flirting in my view.

It seems to me like there are some people out there who think women can absolve themselves of all responsibility when it comes to date rape. And that to me is just absolute horseshit. Coming on to someone, in my opinion, is definitely evidence enough to suggest sex might have been consensual.

Women aren't exactly renowned for being straight-up, and they can't expect men to guess what they are thinking at all times. Women should really own up to the fact that they can send a lot of mixed messages out, whether they necessarily intend to or not. This issue is especially complicated by the fact that the predominant message out there is that women want a man who will be dominant - apparently confirmed by things like 50 shades of grey and every single mills & boon in existence.

Sex should be a two way conversation, and we should be teaching people to be very clear and open about what they mean. We're not in high-school anymore, and no one can assume that people will tip-toe delicately toward sex like we're all still scared or unsure of it.

Seriously...some women fuck me off so much, I'm surprised men bother with us at all.

/end of rant


/thread
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:40 am

Not quite- I have one objection to all of that bridge; why in your entire rant is it only women's responsibility to manage these sorts of interactions? Where's the male influence in all of this? You describe a two-way interaction, but then women have to be the ones to be clear when and when not to have sex? You've actually presented a perfect example of the types of attitudes that allows sexual assaults to go unpunished in the justice system; it's the woman's responsibility to say no, not the man's responsibility to not force sex on the other
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:55 am

bridge. wrote:
Sex should be a two way conversation, and we should be teaching people to be very clear and open about what they mean. We're not in high-school anymore, and no one can assume that people will tip-toe delicately toward sex like we're all still scared or unsure of it.


I'll just add quickly that this is obviously the ideal; people should be free to express their sexuality however they want, without feeling they did anything they did not want to do
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Tartanperil » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:51 am

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:really? i thought flirting was flirting, 'coming on' implies touching and shit, like a chick coming on to you is basically climbing on you and saying 'do you have any condoms?'
I meant it as flirting.

However, a woman "touching" you "and shit" isn't consent either ffs. A woman might choose to give you a blowie, but that's still not consent for intercourse.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Martli » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:23 am

Should do a march to make rape crisis open up to male clients.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:43 am

Tartanperil wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:really? i thought flirting was flirting, 'coming on' implies touching and shit, like a chick coming on to you is basically climbing on you and saying 'do you have any condoms?'
I meant it as flirting.

However, a woman "touching" you "and shit" isn't consent either ffs. A woman might choose to give you a blowie, but that's still not consent for intercourse.

yes, voluntarily having sex with someone does not mean that you wanna have sex with them, i glad we cleared this up.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:46 am

Grave Dancer wrote:Not quite- I have one objection to all of that bridge; why in your entire rant is it only women's responsibility to manage these sorts of interactions? Where's the male influence in all of this? You describe a two-way interaction, but then women have to be the ones to be clear when and when not to have sex? You've actually presented a perfect example of the types of attitudes that allows sexual assaults to go unpunished in the justice system; it's the woman's responsibility to say no, not the man's responsibility to not force sex on the other

it didnt sound like she was saying women have sole responsibility, just that they have some at all.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:43 am

yeah, I understand, but you have to assume she means that - the scenario bridge describes positions some women as ruining it for all; her whole rant is punishing the actions of a particular type of woman, which no doubt she's experienced, but now all other women have to compensate, and self-regulate as a result.

I don't think I've ever known women to be particularly cryptic, not any more so than men

I also find this attitude disturbing:
bridge. wrote:This issue is especially complicated by the fact that the predominant message out there is that women want a man who will be dominant - apparently confirmed by things like 50 shades of grey and every single mills & boon in existence.

:? I don't know if she's pointing out what a retarded social phenomena this is, or genuinely believes women want a man to come into their lives and dominate them. If its the latter, she's almost suggesting women want to be raped?
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:57 am

i think shes suggesting both, many women do want dominant men, probably most, but its also a fucking retarded social phenomenon in my opinion.

and yeh, a lot of women want to be raped, surely you knew this? plenty of men too, how vanilla is your life? haha

when i was accused of shit, in the first couple years, thanx to the horrible things people spread about me, i couldnt move for cute young things who wanted to be mistreated, theres a certain kind of girl who is attracted to scary men, it was actually very disturbing for me cos its not what im into at all, im not a hugely dominant guy at the best of times, i like tough women, not danger girls(despite what people tend to say about me, haha).
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:12 am

yeah, its not like I'm saying that these people don't exist, but i really do think its trying to make the exception the rule. i doubt most women want to be dominated and controlled (we might need some sort of study on that), but its of course a well-known stereotype or cliche that they supposedly do.
so does this result in is what bridge is telling these women to do: that they have to manage a man's expectations, because she'll be expected to want to dominated?
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:15 am

no, she said that the phenomenon was an annoying complication to the issue, she didnt endorse it, like i said, it seems to me that she was pointing out that in many cases women have responsibility in these scenarios which they are currently completely ignoring.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby General Mutante » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:51 pm

I for one would like to see far more straight up and sexually assertive women. I fucking love them. I certainly can't be fucked with games and headfucks or dealing with anyone's daddy issues. I've been lucky enough to know a good few women in my life who have had no qualms letting me know exactly what they wanted. It just makes them all the more attractive to me. Blokes who aren't savagely turned on by bold women need to grow penises at once. I like long walks on the beach and hamburgers.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:49 pm

the kind of woman i really like, is damn near impossible to rape, and not cos you cant rape the willing, or some silly neo-sexist shit like that, but cos she would kick your fuckin head in.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Lamb » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:25 am

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