Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

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PertHJ
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby PertHJ » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:56 am

meh, it's a valid point
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:10 pm

PertHJ wrote:I think Phil is talking about the much harder situation where you did sleep with person X and are then accused of rape, when perhaps it wasn't.

There is so much focus on defending the accused from false charges though, disproportionate to the amount of times it actually happens. Not to deny that false-accusations really cripple a person's life, but they seem to be used as the rule not the exception.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:52 pm

to me it seems the opposite, however speaking to girls who have been raped a lot of them are offended that the kind of shit that happened to me goes on when nobody gives a fuck about their actually violent and/or drug rape, so in the context of this shit i get quite frustrated when people seem to advocate unquestioning belief in what the girl says and instant punishment, no trial needed for the male(obviously, in this kind of case they actually specify female and male, as that is the only possibility in their eyes)
and maybe thats not what you really mean to support, but in effect that is what you are doing.
nobody has a right to rape another.
but nobody has a right to make spurious claims simply because of their gender.

women should not have to be judged by their appearance, but nor should they simply be believed cos they are female and the accused a male, why must it swing from one extreme to the other?

if you dont support that, then stop supporting it.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Tartanperil » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:02 pm

PertHJ wrote:
Tartanperil wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:there is no defense against rape, the defense is that it wasnt rape.

i really hate you tartan peril

I was talking about legal defence for the accused in a court case - ie someone wrongly accused will have a quite reasonable defence against a rape charge of "I wasn't there at the time and I can prove it" defence. So while it was indeed rape there is a perfectly valid defence for the accused.


I think Phil is talking about the much harder situation where you did sleep with person X and are then accused of rape, when perhaps it wasn't. The defense is then that it wasn't rape. However if the persons appearance that you sleept with should be called into question....

Yes he is. - But he was responding to my comment which was referring to either case (ie innocent or guilty).

To reiterate: I fully agree with Phil that there's no justification for rape if you raped someone (and never implied otherwise); but there is a legal defense to a rape charge if you didn't actually rape someone - all other defences, ie "she asked for it", "she came on to me", etc, are rubbish and should have no place in a court room.



EDIT:

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:...but nobody has a right to make spurious claims simply because of their gender.

Indeed. And I never implied such.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:10 pm

i dont think 'she was asking for it' has been used as a defense since adam was a lad, as far as 'she came on to me' that could surely be evidence that the sex was consensual, how can it not be a defense if its corroborated by independent witnesses?
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:16 pm

I reckon its still used a lot - maybe not in those words, but to say you believed she was enticing you to have sex? I'm sure it gets used a lot, and a lot of people believe it themselves that its an invitation to have sex

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:to me it seems the opposite, however speaking to girls who have been raped a lot of them are offended that the kind of shit that happened to me goes on when nobody gives a fuck about their actually violent and/or drug rape, so in the context of this shit i get quite frustrated when people seem to advocate unquestioning belief in what the girl says and instant punishment, no trial needed for the male(obviously, in this kind of case they actually specify female and male, as that is the only possibility in their eyes)
and maybe thats not what you really mean to support, but in effect that is what you are doing.
nobody has a right to rape another.
but nobody has a right to make spurious claims simply because of their gender.

women should not have to be judged by their appearance, but nor should they simply be believed cos they are female and the accused a male, why must it swing from one extreme to the other?

if you dont support that, then stop supporting it.

mmm, I really don't think I'm supporting the other end of the scale, because I really don't see it as a dichotomy - I reckon you can both point out that rape is not as clear and obvious a crime as people think it is, as well as opposing false-accusations.

Doing one doesn't mean mutual exclusion from the other - though I can imagine that's what it looks like what I'm doing. I've just seen how blaming a victim of making spurious claims often shuts down a lot of rape cases. It sucks to see someone being wrongly accused. It also fucking sucks seeing the person that abused you get off scott-free.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:43 pm

"99% of women wouldnt lie about rape" - rape crisis lady to me

that attitude is what shits me up, just as much as the one in the image posted by tartanperil.

theres shit people everywhere, but just being the opposite kind of small minded fuckwit doesnt help, saying that all rape cases are weighted in favour of the male and that women never lie and must always be believed, is just as fucked as vice versa, anyway, back outside with me.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:46 pm

but do you think there really are as many false accusations of rape, as there are woman trying to prove someone raped them?
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby PertHJ » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:52 pm

Does there need to be?
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Tartanperil » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:54 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:... as far as 'she came on to me' that could surely be evidence that the sex was consensual

I fail to see how "she came on to me" can be evidence that sex was consensual?

Either sex is consensual or not. I'm sure you understand that a woman coming on to you is in no way consent to have sex with her - hence "she was coming on to me" plays no valid part in a defense against a rape charge.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:55 pm

PertHJ wrote:Does there need to be?

maybe yeah, otherwise you're going to have a system that disproportionately protects people, and even favours them over the victim
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Red_switch » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:00 pm

That's kinda the way our justice system is structured (vaguely) yeah.

TP, I think the reality is that in a lot of situations, the line between consensual sex and rape does become pretty blurred. It's an unfortunate truth, and one of the reasons we end up with, frankly, horrible situations so often... My old man was only half joking when he once told me and my mates to make sure we "get it in writing" before we all headed away to get drunk and be idiots one summer.
I think it's lint.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:31 pm

good court room arugments

i dont know what happened with phill thats why i am curious

i know "something" happened though but thats it
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Tartanperil » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:42 pm

Red_switch wrote:...the line between consensual sex and rape does become pretty blurred.

I personally don't think so (at least when it comes to what is and isn't rape, as opposed to false accusations obviouisly) - if there's any blur or doubt, ask. Someone flirting with you is not consent. And the way someone dresses is never consent, which is what this thread is about.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Red_switch » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:43 pm

I think it shouldn't be blurred, but appreciate that situations arise where it may become blurred. People are generally pretty shit at acting rationally.
I think it's lint.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Tartanperil wrote:
Red_switch wrote:...the line between consensual sex and rape does become pretty blurred.

I personally don't think so (at least when it comes to what is and isn't rape, as opposed to false accusations obviouisly) - if there's any blur or doubt, ask. Someone flirting with you is not consent. And the way someone dresses is never consent, which is what this thread is about.



yeah...but....what about the girl changing her mind the next day?

can that happen?

it can and does aye?
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:45 pm

(or guy for that matter)
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:50 pm

do people really change their minds? or do they just feel shit for going along with something they didn't want to do? oooooo
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:53 pm

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some lovely light reading :baton:

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=OynW ... &q&f=false
The past two decades have witnessed a significant shift in how rape is understood in Western societies. This shift in perception has revealed the startling frequency of occurrences of date rape, obscuring the divide between rape and what was once just sex.

Just Sex? combines an overview of the existing literature with an analysis of recent research to examine the psychological and cultural implications of this new epidemic. The result is the conclusion that feminist theory on sexual victimization has gone both too far and not far enough.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:53 pm

lol


isnt that the same thing?

:baton:
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:57 pm

Cosmo Kramer wrote:lol


isnt that the same thing?

:baton:

it could be :) but you then have to look at why they changed their mind; did it change because they wanted to be vindictive and get back at the guy for some petty personal issue? Or because they realise afterwards they felt coerced and pressured into having sex in the first place?

which is it? :tohlc:
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:13 pm

it only becomes blurred AFTERWARD when one or both parties were drunk and/or liars
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:34 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:it only becomes blurred AFTERWARD when one or both parties were drunk and/or liars


is that what happened with you?

sorry, generally interested
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Tartanperil » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:42 pm

Cosmo, Phil has avoided questions about this several times, I think if he wanted to say he would have already and I don't think it's a fair thing to keep demanding an answer to if he doesn't want to say.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:11 pm

haha, thank you, i wrote a big horrible confession of what i felt i did wrong and outlining why i think im not the reprehensible sleaze that i was painted as, if you missed that then maybe someone will link it, i sure wont, as far as any other allegations i might make il keep them off punkas for now, cheers for giving me the grace you would a female mr peril, it wasnt expected from you.
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:56 pm

its fine.

i kinda know but not really as was a while ago.

only reason i am asking if so i can understand the argument phil is making.




carry on.


i will watch from the sides
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby bridge. » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:32 am

Grave Dancer wrote:
Cosmo Kramer wrote:lol


isnt that the same thing?

:baton:

it could be :) but you then have to look at why they changed their mind; did it change because they wanted to be vindictive and get back at the guy for some petty personal issue? Or because they realise afterwards they felt coerced and pressured into having sex in the first place?

which is it? :tohlc:


You realise it can quite happily be either or both right?


You're not going to make any progress in prosecuting rape unless you make fundamental changes to the justice system, because the justice system is designed to let innocent people go, not to prosecute guilty people. And when there are no witnesses, no one can possibly know who is telling the truth!

It sucks but it's true.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Grave Dancer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:25 am

you can go one step further and say that the very basic and fundamental conceptualisations that we have of sex and rape is what leads to this - changing the justice system just tackles the legal and one of the more overt aspects of the problem. what I'm talking about goes further into questioning why this stuff happens, and continues to happen.

I'm not denying that adapting the justice system does help at times of course - until the mid-90s it was legal to rape your wife in England, for example. It was only through a lot of flag waving and critiquing of the predominant attitudes of that system and social discourse, that this was even changed
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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Matt » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:24 am

Tartanperil wrote:
Fiction & Falsehood wrote:... as far as 'she came on to me' that could surely be evidence that the sex was consensual

I fail to see how "she came on to me" can be evidence that sex was consensual?.


It doesn't have to be under law - for a 'not guilty' verdict, it just has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the accused had valid reason to believe there was consent. That's why all that kind of stuff gets wheeled out.

It is an incredibly tricky thing to judge on because, generally speaking, you have only the accused and the alleged victim present and you are looking for evidence of what they were thinking.

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Re: Slutwalk Dunedin 2012, 1 September

Postby Red_switch » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:26 am

^ crux of the issue.
I think it's lint.

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