Recording drums Midi-digital interface

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby xCaptainx » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:11 pm

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Obzen » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:38 pm

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Well seymour, you are an odd fellow, but I must say, you steam a good ham

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:52 pm

xCaptainx wrote:Image



what is that meant to mean...shooting ducks? shooting turkeys?

edit: wait....is there even shooting involved?
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Nathanael » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:59 pm

So if triggered kicks are a preference, does that mean those that choose to use them have shit taste and like to listen to poor sounds?

All it says to me is "I can't play any dynamics when I have to play fast, my feet are too slow so I have to play quietly to make sure I hit on time."

Weak.
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby yossarian » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:01 pm

Sorry dude, I leapt to the conclusion that you wanted to record awesome sounding drums.
In all seriousness though, spending $200 now on a shitty interface instead of $600 on something decent and flexible just means you spend $800 to end up at the same place after 6 months of frustration. It's The infamous Cheap Gear Fallacy.

As long as you don't say "I'm mixing it on these awful stereo speakers cause if it sounds good on them it'll sound good on anything" we're all good bro.

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby kettles » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:08 pm

I thought a huge amount of modern recordings used sample reinforcement anyway, even if it's not for the retarded brutal clicky double kicks.

Or you could just demo your tracks on your current set up and save to do it properly in a real studio. It'll sound better and studio experience is valuable for drummers.

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby xCaptainx » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:40 pm

Nathanael wrote:So if triggered kicks are a preference, does that mean those that choose to use them have shit taste and like to listen to poor sounds?


No.

All it says to me is "I can't play any dynamics when I have to play fast, my feet are too slow so I have to play quietly to make sure I hit on time."


That's nice.

Weak.


:baton:

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby FC » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:45 pm

He's kind of right though, every drummer I know cringes at the mere mention of the word "trigger".
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby xCaptainx » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:10 pm

and given the style of music those drummers probably pay, that's fair enough too. Earlier I agreed with the idea of triggers for simple rock/slow to medium pace stuff would sound silly.

But try find a drummer who could create a beater distance of over 2" while doing 16th notes @ 250bpm. Remember, I'm talking about a veryspecific genre of music where kicks are anywhere from 220 to 260bpm 16th notes, and where triggers are understandable and work well. Often it's not physically possible for a drummer to maintain that speed, at the velocity required for a mic'd accoustic drum to sound halfway decent, for a long period of time.

Again I'm not saying 'fuck acoustic drums, y'all are morons' here. I'm saying that for a specific style/genre/sound, they work. Obviously, as a fucktonne of bands use them.

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby yossarian » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:46 pm

And if those bands weren't pose as fuck, they wouldn't have a drummer at all. Just program the drums and play them off a laptop or an MPC live. One less member, less shit to cart everywhere, same sound if not better. But that would be "gay bro"

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby kettles » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:05 pm

You're saying it like anybody could play 16ths@250bpm at a quiet volume without much trouble. Nah man it's hard as fuck and takes months, even years to develop the control and endurance needed to play at that speed, in time, for however long you need to.

I can't do it, it's not my thing. I still think triggers are a bit lame but to say using them is cheating, isn't entirely true. My issue with triggers is that they're used to push the instrument beyond it's capability, but that's another debate.

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby kettles » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:11 pm

On another note, I want to know what running a piezo trigger directly into a mixer would sound like. Probably like a giant ugly pop noise right? But combined with a regular mic and the right EQ and comp you might get something usable without going the trigger>brain route. How about a contact microphone stuck to the head, what would that sound like?

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Nathanael » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:59 pm

You would need a good DI to do it, otherwise you could be in for a world of hum. High pass the fuck out of it and you'll get a pretty good boom if placed right. Also try mounting it on a plate to use the plate as a pickup. Never tried it on drums but have used it in sound design to good effect.

Just had a thought, you probably want to use it for click yeah? You'll probably get more of a slap sound. I really dislike too much tops in a kick drum, I love the sound of the Heil PR48 I have because it rolls off after 8.5k
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Dick Dynamite » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:00 am

Was going to quote this

CHF - a simple 2 note per string, pentatonic scale can be quite interesting when you start mucking around with the grouping. Try doing decending groups of 3 (same 'accent/attack' as you would with three notes per string) , then 5, or 6. Zac Wylde is quite fond of this method. Start at 140bpm then go up 10-15 bpm every few minutes, see how ya go. It gets pretty tough after 180+, especially if you are used to 3 notes per string 'widdla widdla widdla' style of 'shred'


To be funny...

but when I went back and found it I realised this was Captain as well...

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Obzen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:27 am

I reckon it's more a tonal thing than a velocity or dynamics thing. A natural bass sound just wont cut through the modern metal guitar sound to deliver adequete pay-off for brutes as double-kickery

I certainly don't play lightly (or any different to how I would normally play) on the bass drum with my trigger. Fast, hard and consistent double kicks have always been my strongest point, so I've never felt the need to cut any corners or make the job easier for myself. Hand dynamics have always been my weaker point, and I've worked on that heaps, but I'm pretty sure I'd never consider triggering my snare or toms.

Bands like Suffocation and Malevolent Creation and the above NZ examples go for that old-school raw death metal sound and a natural kick fits into that perfectly, but I imagine that kick sound might not come through thick processed guitar effectively. That's my theory anyway.

I play a few different styles of music, and different styles of metal and for most of them I wouldn't want the triggered kick sound. But the band I'm putting most of my energy into right now has a very precise and percussive mechanical sound and a triggered kick fits really well.
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Obzen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:38 am

yossarian wrote:Sorry dude, I leapt to the conclusion that you wanted to record awesome sounding drums.

Awesome sound for one genre isn't necesarily awesome for a totally different genre. But anyway, I do appreciate the advice and will keep it in mind perhaps for a totally different recording project in the non-modern-metal realm. I'm still really new to this so I can't really argue, maybe I'll come back in a couple of years with stronger opinions and arguments, til then it's just trial and error.

yossarian wrote:In all seriousness though, spending $200 now on a shitty interface instead of $600 on something decent and flexible just means you spend $800 to end up at the same place after 6 months of frustration. It's The infamous Cheap Gear Fallacy.


Story of my life, I'm impatient and impulsive, when I decide I want something I have to be able to buy it with my next paycheck or I get upset and settle for something cheaper.

yossarian wrote:As long as you don't say "I'm mixing it on these awful stereo speakers cause if it sounds good on them it'll sound good on anything" we're all good bro.

I'm glad we're all good then ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:41 am

Obzen wrote:I reckon it's more a tonal thing than a velocity or dynamics thing. A natural bass sound just wont cut through the modern metal guitar sound to deliver adequete pay-off for brutes as double-kickery


im no expert, but im pretty sure you can make this happen without triggers if you had a "skilled" enginier ??

xCaptainx wrote:But try find a drummer who could create a beater distance of over 2" while doing 16th notes @ 250bpm. Remember, I'm talking about a veryspecific genre of music where kicks are anywhere from 220 to 260bpm 16th notes, and where triggers are understandable and work well. Often it's not physically possible for a drummer to maintain that speed, at the velocity required for a mic'd accoustic drum to sound halfway decent, for a long period of time.


sureley there are drummers who can play this? and be this good / play it well ??



lol i cant believe we are at this again :baton:

from one thread to another.


do we have to make a list?

just to sumerize? who is on whos team?

Hey Ross, dont some of the bands you worship NOT use triggers?
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Obzen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:50 am

yossarian wrote:And if those bands weren't pose as fuck, they wouldn't have a drummer at all. Just program the drums and play them off a laptop or an MPC live. One less member, less shit to cart everywhere, same sound if not better. But that would be "gay bro"


Well you've taken it to it's furtherest possible extreme, but really a kick trigger doesn't do the job for you, and it doesn't play the rest of the kit for you. It's a pretty minimal fraction of 'fakeness' in the context of the work the drummer is doing. For arguments sake there are endless possible comparisons to acoustic/electric guitars, live EQ, and other electronic instruments.

Another technique for producing a similar clicky bass drum sound is attaching two coins to the front of our bass drum head where the beaters hit, I've tried it, it sounds fucking awesome but it's rips the shit of your bass drum head. So perhaps we could forgive kick triggers for being 'fake' because are emulating a natural technique to save skins/money?

But if you don't like the sound, you don't like the sound... as simple as that... it's taste.
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby xCaptainx » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:52 am

Cosmo Kramer wrote:sureley there are drummers who can play this? and be this good / play it well ??


Sure. Much in the same way that Marco Marco Sfogli, Shawn Lane and Rusty Cooley are talented guitarists. But playing at that level for 99% of all other guitarists is near impossible. There are guys out there who can do the 16th note 250bpm thing I mentioned, but nowhere near as loud or powerful as a triggered kick would sound like.

Hey Ross, dont some of the bands you worship NOT use triggers?


Of course. My fav bands all use a variety of different gear/tunings/technique/skill levels etc. And furthermore, I've only been in one band that uses triggers. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all. I'm saying there is a particular, and practical, use for them. Obzen put it very well.

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:59 am

wait..... now im confused..... i thought triggers play the drums for you while you sit back and wank to the beat of the drum?
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby xCaptainx » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:07 am

hahah no, you still play/hit/kick, but it plays a pre recorded sample.

I'm no drummer expert, but there can be a variety of ways you can trigger kicks. I think the axis pedals can be set to 'trigger' when the beater is at exactly 90 degrees.

So most arguments regarding 'cheating' or 'timing' are misinformed, as you still need to be in time and hit the kicks at the right time etc. What it does mean is that you can play faster, with as little beater movement as possible, and still have a 'powerful' kick (the pre recorded, full strength/power kick sample)

THAT's usually the biggest complaint with purists or people that simply don't like triggers. Which is fair enough. My specific example/support for triggers is when you're playing at a speed where powerful kicks would be near impossible to physically do, or if you're going for that mechanical sound anyway.

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:11 am

xCaptainx wrote:hahah no, you still play/hit/kick, but it plays a pre recorded sample.

I'm no drummer expert, but there can be a variety of ways you can trigger kicks. I think the axis pedals can be set to 'trigger' when the beater is at exactly 90 degrees.

So most arguments regarding 'cheating' or 'timing' are misinformed, as you still need to be in time and hit the kicks at the right time etc. What it does mean is that you can play faster, with as little beater movement as possible, and still have a 'powerful' kick (the pre recorded, full strength/power kick sample)

THAT's usually the biggest complaint with purists or people that simply don't like triggers. Which is fair enough. My specific example/support for triggers is when you're playing at a speed where powerful kicks would be near impossible to physically do, or if you're going for that mechanical sound anyway.



lol im joking !! i know how they work.

all i am saying is that most people make them sound shit anyway.

and you trigger purists get so butthurt :baton:

Some people been saying here....oh but i cant play that fast....well thats your own fault... either practise or go wank some more so you have bigger musscels to play better with :baton:

so where are we at with this argument?
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby FC » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:16 am

Ross wants a computer playing drums for him
everyone laughs at ross
BC Rich came on and said to stop picking on him, and monster said they would give us free cans of drink if we just leave him alone.
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Obzen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:20 am

I'm happy with my arguments, I've made some good points and now I rest my case. I'm interested in what what the plaintiffs Nathaniel, Yossarian, Kettles, DCLXVDLI come back with. Seems it's just me and Captain as defendants, but I think we can hold our own. You're pretty neutral and mediatory Cosmo, so I guess you're the judge, jury and seedy prison guard :baton: then?
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby xCaptainx » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:21 am

I think we're up to :baton: possibly 0X

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Obzen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:23 am

FC wrote:Ross wants a computer playing drums for him
everyone laughs at ross
BC Rich came on and said to stop picking on him, and monster said they would give us free cans of drink if we just leave him alone.


I object! Defamation and slander!

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:25 am

yeah....


just by looking at the teams i wouldnt want to be on Team Ross


:baton:
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Cosmo Kramer » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:26 am

Obzen wrote:I'm happy with my arguments, I've made some good points and now I rest my case. I'm interested in what what the plaintiffs Nathaniel, Yossarian, Kettles, DCLXVDLI come back with. Seems it's just me and Captain as defendants, but I think we can hold our own. You're pretty neutral and mediatory Cosmo, so I guess you're the judge, jury and seedy prison guard :baton: then?



so, whats your case again? summerize? bullet points?
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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby xCaptainx » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:32 am

Cosmo Kramer wrote:yeah....

just by looking at the teams i wouldnt want to be on Team Ross

:baton:


:fist: No Monster for you then :baton: :lol:

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Re: Recording drums Midi-digital interface

Postby Obzen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:35 am

Cosmo Kramer wrote:so, whats your case again? summerize? bullet points?


1. It's a tonal thing (cutting through a certain type of guitar sound)
2. Coins on bass head can have similar effect/sound
3. Electric guitar vs acoustic + live EQ, noisegates etc
4. The plaintiff is a known child sex offender
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