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Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:54 pm
by Whitey
What's everyones thoughts on Dogs/Cats (carnivorous) animals being fed a Vegetarian/Vegan diet?

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:38 pm
by arkie
Cats are obligate carnivores, they lack the physiology for the digestion of vegetable matter so I would say restricting a cat to a vegan diet isn't okay, even kfc would be better for them.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:41 pm
by old school punk
Cats have to have meat or they will become sick and die but dogs are fine on a vegan diet . But I couldn't be bothered cooking vegan meals for my 2 dogs

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:16 pm
by Philfy Vermin
sheep are vegan

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:13 pm
by aerozol
afaik:
Dogs aren't carnivorous.
Cats are omnivore because they get veggies from the stomachs of things they eat, but meat is their main deal.

conclusion:
don't make your cat veggie, feel free with the dog

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:40 pm
by akaxo
there's vegan dog foods out there that are specifically formulated to meet all their dietary needs. someone in nz is distributing one that is imported from italy, there maybe other options? it's way more expensive than anything in the supermarket though, that and the impact of importing from the other side of the world issues meant i tried it on my dog once then didn't bother sticking with it. possible though if you're real keen.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:38 am
by dustbinflowers
I think it's kind of fucked up to lay your food choices on your pets. If you can't deal with what they need to eat, don't have pets. Sorry, I feel quite strongly about this, after seeing a cat which had been fed vegan for 4 years which was slowly dying. The owner wouldn't take it to the vet, and was treating it with all sorts of herbs. I should've called the RSPCA on her.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:38 pm
by Whitey
Reason I ask is I've just acquired a rescue dog, he's a lovely chap. When we first got him, we were feeding him meat which I felt a little bit weird about, but gradually removed it from his diet I've started introducing vegetables (broccoli, spinach, carrots, coliflower) to his diet with his dog biscuits which he doesn't seem to mind. My main concern is his health, but at the same time I don't feel comfortable supporting the meat industry so I can see both sides of the argument.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:04 pm
by aerozol
dustbinflowers wrote:If you can't deal with what they need to eat, don't have pets.

Again, keeping in mind that dogs don't have to eat meat. CATS DO.
And actually Whitey I'm sure the SPCA or a vet that's knowledgeable would be happy to help? Some of them might be a bit bias towards meat/ not have the knowledge but I'm sure they'd be happy to give advice

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:21 am
by Whitey
aerozol wrote:
dustbinflowers wrote:If you can't deal with what they need to eat, don't have pets.

Again, keeping in mind that dogs don't have to eat meat. CATS DO.
And actually Whitey I'm sure the SPCA or a vet that's knowledgeable would be happy to help? Some of them might be a bit bias towards meat/ not have the knowledge but I'm sure they'd be happy to give advice

Awesome thanks. I've read a little bit about it and there appear to be mixed views, mainly from people who eat meat. I like the idea of him being vegetarian/vegan but I wouldn't want to jeopardize his health for my own personal views.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:06 am
by dustbinflowers
Even when I was vege I found a source of rabbit/hare for my dog. You can find ways of not supporting the meat industry

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:42 pm
by sinksinksink
When I used to have my beagle I fed her vegan, she was thriving. She had weetbix (its got all the b vitamins in it) and soy milk with banana's from breakfast, and for dinner she would usually had a mix of rice, mix veg, lentils and chick peas and tvp, you can get most of the stuff from bulk foods and cook up big pots of it and freeze it as well.

Sometimes we dumpstered dog biscuits and she would eat them if she wanted to as well with the rice mix (to keep the protein up) or sometimes i would buy that vegan dog biscuit stuff as well and mix that in cause that's got everything she needs but was fairly pricey.

She got vet checked several times and they said she was doing great. If she ever had problems with that diet I would have changed it as her health came first.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:05 am
by ghetto ninja
Oi Whitey, talk to Tom Anderson about raising a vegan Dog. Hooli is a very happy and healthy dog, anyone disputing a well balanced vegan diet for their Dog should spend a bit of time with her.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:35 am
by dustbinflowers
I don't dispute that dogs can be healthy on a vegan diet- I just question the reasons. Is it fair to lay it on another because you have issues with it?
And you said he was getting dog bicuits- do they contain meat products?

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:07 pm
by Philfy Vermin
two diff dogs.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:52 pm
by buckton
Image

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:08 pm
by aerozol
dustbinflowers wrote:I don't dispute that dogs can be healthy on a vegan diet- I just question the reasons. Is it fair to lay it on another because you have issues with it?

Is it fair for you to force a meat diet on a dog because you eat meat? You're assuming that that's the natural way of it, when dogs aren't hunters like cats are.

but honestly, dogs don't care : S

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:18 pm
by Philfy Vermin
dogs arent hunters?

ok.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:26 pm
by aerozol
Sorry, not all dogs. Some were definitely bred for it

edit: or rather didn't have it bred out of them

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:29 pm
by Dead Kid

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:00 pm
by dustbinflowers
aerozol wrote:Is it fair for you to force a meat diet on a dog because you eat meat? You're assuming that that's the natural way of it, when dogs aren't hunters like cats are.

but honestly, dogs don't care : S


I'm quite speechless. You know when dogs sniff the ground they are tracking scent. That's not generally after soya beans. You can justify breeding out all you want, and tell yourself dogs don't care (not sure where you get that- maybe you have done controlled food choice experiments?) but dogs are biologically still wolves- who are hunters.

To me feeding a dog vegan is kind of like feeding a horse meat- you wouldn't go there, would you? You’re taking a whole species of animal and trying to force it to eat something that it isn’t designed to handle. You want to do this to make yourself happy. It’s not about the animal, it is typical humancentric bullshit, deciding what is better for everything else on the planet.


Paraphrased from somewhere:

1. Dogs are not “obligate carnivores,” so they can actually be called “omnivores.” However they are primarily carnivores, and need a mostly meat based diet, just like their evolutionary ancestors, wolves.

2. Plant based foods for dogs (and wolves, their closest relative) are OK for carbohydrate fuel use but are more difficult to use for protein than animal based proteins. The best carbohydrate source for dog food is brown rice, because it is less likely to cause problems. Potato is second, but it’s not as readily assimilated as brown rice. Even if your dog doesn’t have an allergy or intolerance to wheat, corn or soy, it can develop one from repeated use just like humans can develop them later in life.
An almost pure grain dog food may have as much protein as a more meat based one, but dogs can’t process grain proteins like humans can--they need the amino acids and vitamins in meat proteins that are absent in plant based proteins, plus dogs don’t have all the human digestive enzymes that enable digestion of some plant proteins. So plant based protein in dog food shouldn’t be counted the same as meat based protein on the nutrition labels, but it is. Therefore you really need to think about what the labels really mean.

Some people say that dogs and wolves are omnivores because they will eat fruits, vegetables and grains in the wild. Yes, when deprived of a meat source of food, they well eat berries, apples and melons, etc., but only when deprived. And when is the last time a researcher has seen wolves digging for carrots, potatoes or other roots, or eating sufficient wheat, barley, rye or soy growing wild?

Regarding the genetic relationship between dogs and wolves, dogs are actually more related to wolves than coyotes are:

“The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mitochondrial DNA sequence....In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.”

Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D. “Molecular evolution of the dog family” Theoretical and Applied Genetics

So to determine what is likely to be the best diet for your dog, look at the diet of wild wolves. While it is technically possible to create a vegetarian diet for dogs, it is difficult to do and requires extensive knowledge and effort along with additional nutritional supplements.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:05 pm
by Philfy Vermin
or you know, whatever.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:10 pm
by aerozol
It might be harder to feed a dog a vegetarian diet but you can do it (which is what your 'paraphrase' says very clearly). You can even simply buy pet food with the right nutrients. And if it still tastes great to dog, and gives them what they need, then what do you think the dog has a problem with? Projecting your feelings onto the animal it sounds like.

If you're And OF COURSE it's to make the owner feel better. They own a pet dog... If you want to treat your dog like you'd treat a wolf then fucking put it into the wild and let it hunt shit and be free and all the shit that domesticated animals just don't really want to do.

edit: but whatever I don't really care.. don't have a dog and I doubt I would go to the effort of feeding it a veggie diet. Actually almost certainly wouldn't

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:27 pm
by Philfy Vermin
a lot of veges are bad for dogs, inc avo, which they love to eat.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:00 am
by akaxo
yeah there's a toxin in the pit which is really bad for dogs, it can leach out into the flesh so avo is one to not give them.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:11 am
by dustbinflowers
Really? Damn, Sioux used to love avo. I know onion, cooked or raw is bad for them too.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:16 am
by akaxo
it's something that only got confirmed relatively recently. i had no idea until i saw a warning sign at the vet i go to last year and asked them about it.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:36 am
by dustbinflowers
Akaxo, remember that big black dog of Micks? I can't remember his name, the one who was a constant barking spazz (although a lovely dog). They left him with us up the hill for a week to look after- he was vege, and after getting and eating possibly his first ever possum, suddenly turned into this mellow cruisy boy (he may of course been gutbombed :wink: ).

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:30 pm
by Philfy Vermin
yeh, my dads dog crunches up and eats the pit too.

that dog catches and eats a lot of possums and rabbits and shit too, yappy little asshole, when i walk him he goes nuts on the end of his lead anytime he sees another dog, acts like hes a giant doberman, but let him off the lead and he doesnt make a peep.

Re: Vege/Vegan Pets

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:44 pm
by dustbinflowers
While he's on the lead he knows you've got his back, so he can act tough :)