Breaking....vedge?

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akaxo
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby akaxo » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:57 pm

well with the odd exception of animals that have scent glands that are an issue maybe but i've done a fair bit of butchering of animals of all sorts of sizes and it's really not that hard at all in my experiance.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby PertHJ » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:23 pm

akaxo wrote:
PertHJ wrote:However basing my reasoning on ethics makes me very aware of my hypocrisies of eating dairy/cheese/wearing leather and makes me ponder that if I'm not going to make the next leap (vegan etc) then why stay being a vegetarian.
because doing something is better than doing nothing? and really being vegan isn't that hard.


Agreed. Although I'm pretty confident that after being vegie for 10 years that it's unlikely Id go vegan. I have a girlfriend that eats meat, but I do most of the cooking and so most of our food is vegetarian (sausages are the only meat I cook for her, other than putting salami on something), so going vegan would probably impact her more than me.


akaxo wrote:
PertHJ wrote:Weirdly enough, reading more scientific writing on atheism, evolution, the human mind, and even quantum physics, has made me both marvel how fucking awesome shit is and how incredible it is that *I* am alive, but also how insignificant and meaningless everything is- I guess this could be an argument for how precious life is, but also makes ethical ideas become far less ridged/black and white and are forever changing.
yeah this sort of thing has being more of a reason to be vegan than not and to respect all life. a christian outlook being the one that gives people the delusion that they are somehow special and different from the other animals...


What I mean is that ethics is something that we have evolved to follow, but aren't an absolutely, more or less in the same way that humans are predisposition to believe in a higher being...so where does that put ethics? And that was my point in regards to not wanting to prove Christians right (not having ethics without religion)

Also, as for respecting all life, what about all the plants we chow down on? Are they worth less than animals, just because they dont think/feel in a manner we understand/are comfortable with? Is is any worse drawing the line at humans or mammals or sentient beings or animals or....

J wrote:
PertHJ wrote:...as after all our bodys have evolved over millions of years with meat being a presence in the diet so to me it doesn't really make sense to leave it out completely.


meat is mostly irrelevant if you are still eating a balanced diet. its not that our bodies evolved to need meat, only what the meat provides right? (its a question cause i know you know more about it that me/the rest of us :)) and now that there are plenty of other ways to get what you need without meat, it doesn't seem all that necessary. in fact its not just irrelevant, it almost seems irresponsible to add more pressure to the planet by eating what you really don't need to (not that its ever been a concern of mine).


Yes day to day we can survive without meat, and certainly many people have done so for a life time.

But you probably wouldn't say you could get the same benefits you get from a plant as you do from some pill manufactured in the lab', as the intricate way the human body has evolved to process and take advantage of the plants it has been ingesting over millions of years, and has become dependent on. To recreate in the lab is next to impossible as the interaction between chemicals within the food with those within our body is very complex and although you can buy various pills to supply multitude of nutrients, it's still no substitue for the real thing. The same thing is true of meat supplying an array of nutrients that interact in our body in a complex way - the most obvious being vastly improved iron absorption (not that this would benefit me personally).

Although day to day survival without certain foods (and the nutrients they contain) is easy, long term the lack can do serious harm - and it's not a case of eating and/or taking a pill when you notice symptoms, as a lot of food you eat (or dont eat) affects you latter in life. Such as consuming plenty of calcium when young to maximise peak bone mass so that later in life you don't develop osteoporoses, or consuming enough B12 and other brain essential nutrients to fight off neurological diseases like Alzheimer's. As we start to live longer, a lack of these sort of nutrients (that have an impact later in life) may become a serious problem, something we wont be able to do anything about when we (individually) become aware of the problem.
But yes, if we tried hard enough we may be able to consume enough of these nutrients* through eating the right non-meat food or taking the right pills. However managing your diet to reep the benefits, 40+years down the track seems like a challenge and far less likely to succeed than having a complete balanced diet (including some meat)

*by these nutrients I dont necessarily mean calcium and b12, they are just a couple of examples I thought of that can lack from a veggie and/or vegan diet.
Last edited by PertHJ on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:31 pm

well said, ive often felt i have to point out that the problem with eating meat isnt eating meat, its how the meat is produced.
ive always been mystified by vegans who refuse the slightest aroma of animal fat/whatever but happily eat deforestation causing soy, or palm oil, or clamour over 'vegan' shoes made by tiny underpaid hands in cambodia.
ethical behavior isnt following a set of rules, thats religion.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Livestock » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:39 am

HAI PERT!

I was vege probably 7 years I'd say. Then ate some chicken accidentally about 2 months ago.
Nothing happened, nothing changed, and I still don't eat meat. Maybe it's different for me as I have GUTS to act a safety net against any
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:07 am

how did you acidentally eat chicken?
'i was walking past KFC drunk and i tripped over and faceplanted into this samoan dudes bucket, when i woke up id eaten the whole thing'
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby PertHJ » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:53 am

Concealed sneaky meat making it's way into food is relatively common occurrence, pastas etc. Then again, it becomes obvious pretty quickly, so unlikely to accidentally consume enough to have any kind of reaction (other than mild annoyance/revulsion) so not too sure what Jeff's talking about...
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:29 am

like a hot beef injection
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby PertHJ » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:31 am

[insert prison joke]?
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:55 am

one of my buddies in there was a nazi skinhead with long hair and a beard who was notorious for sticking his dick in a tranny in waikeria

just putting that out there
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Dixon Cider A.C. » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:46 pm

PertHJ wrote:Concealed sneaky meat making it's way into food is relatively common occurrence, pastas etc.


broken english at grind show in cz last year got me a mouthful of beef stew from a supposed vegan fundraiser, gave it to Hugh to finish. I was thinking damn I hope this is some pretty convincing tofu

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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Dead Kid » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:06 pm

Fiction & Falsehood wrote:skinhead with long hair

So his head was shaved and he had long hair elsewhere? :baton:
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby the croc » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:14 pm

I started eating meat again after a 3 or 4 year break after getting a job working on fishing boats where I didn't have any choice of what I ate. First meat I ate was a Jabies kebab then straight into Ukrainian fare, ox tongue, chicken hearts etc.

My reasons for vege weren't killing things at all, more not wanting to support factory farms/mass murder meat works etc. Since then I've killed a lot of fish and a few goats for food.

My girlfriend now is vegetarian so I don't eat a lot of meat, probably once or twice a week. Still probably have less impact that some urban vegan who eats lots of tofu and chick peas imported from half way round the world.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:14 pm

^thats exactly how i feel about it, im not trying to knock veganism, but i think some people do start to lose sight of WHY they are doing it.
i dont begrudge vegans their oreos, i just dont think its any better than eating regular bikkies.
either way its an ethically questionable indulgence.

on the whole a vegan diet is still a lot better than most peoples, both health and ethics wise.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby sticky » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:22 am

was vegie for a few years then vegan, broke vedge edge some time last year (again). have been trapping possums in the bush across the road from my house. skinning and gutting the animal before you eat it has been a totally new and welcome experience, gets the mammal in you going. also possum is considered a pest... as far as im concerned anything that easy to catch and cook and that tastes so amaizing (like actually the sweetest richest meat iv ever taisted) surely should not be considered a pest. instead of poison drops and mass culling they should distribute information on trapping and preparation (and how to check for desieses).

highly highly recommend some possum meat. free, local, good for the environment, healthy, delicious.

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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby sticky » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:25 am

was vegie for a few years then vegan, broke vedge edge some time last year (again). have been trapping possums in the bush across the road from my house. skinning and gutting the animal before you eat it has been a totally new and welcome experience, gets the mammal in you going. also possum is considered a pest... as far as im concerned anything that easy to catch and cook and that tastes so amaizing (like actually the sweetest richest meat iv ever tasted) surely should not be considered a pest. instead of poison drops and mass culling they should distribute information on trapping and preparation (and how to check for desieses).

highly highly recommend some possum meat. free, local, good for the environment, healthy, delicious.

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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby sticky » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:32 am

was vegie for a few years then vegan for a few more, broke vedge edge some time last year (again). since i'v been eating free meat and cheese and have been trapping possums in the bush across the road from my house. skinning and gutting the animal before you eat it has been a totally new and welcome experience, definitely changes allot about how you view the animal in relation to your self, gets the mammal in you going. also possum is considered a pest... as far as im concerned anything that easy to catch and cook and that tastes so amaizing (like actually the sweetest richest meat iv ever tasted) surely should not be considered a pest. instead of poison drops and mass culling they should distribute information on trapping and preparation (and how to check for desieses).

highly highly recommend some possum meat. free, local, good for the environment, healthy, delicious.

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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby sticky » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:34 am

was vegie for a few years then vegan for a few more, broke vedge edge some time last year (again). since i'v been eating free meat and cheese and have been trapping possums in the bush across the road from my house. skinning and gutting the animal before you eat it has been a totally new and welcome experience, definitely changes allot about how you view the animal in relation to your self, gets the mammal in you going. also possum is considered a pest... as far as im concerned anything that easy to catch and cook and that tastes so amaizing (like actually the sweetest richest meat iv ever tasted) surely should not be considered a pest. instead of poison drops and mass culling they should distribute information on trapping and preparation (and how to check for desieses).

highly highly recommend some possum meat. free, local, good for the environment, healthy, delicious.

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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby FC » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:24 am

Killing animals....that's gonna make anyone cum.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby PertHJ » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:30 am

:lol:
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Fiction & Falsehood » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:17 pm

been meaning to try possum for some time now
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby old school punk » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:41 pm

What a turn around icky
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby FC » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:45 pm

So did you start eating meat rupes?

I've been noticing more and more patronising vegans and veges on fb recently too, all European, I never see that shit from my NZ friends any more

This was the worst offender recently

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I mean shit, really? Fuck off.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby PertHJ » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:31 pm

Nah,

Been going to a lot of meat laden BBQ's lately where the event is essentially the BBQ (rather than a party that happens to have a BBQ), which has been kinda interesting as the guys in charge really know what they are doing and apparently have excellent cuts of meat, but kind of weird as I'm the only vege there and end up just eating salad.

Actually kind of weird being at a non-punk/non-pinko bastard party and being the only person that doesn't eat meat.
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Lamb » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:39 pm

You don't win friends with salad pert... (Just wanted to say it!)

I broke vedge like 4 years ago (actually feels like it was a fuckload longer!!) after being vedge 9 years (aged 12-21) Drunken KFC after my/a 21st was what did it...
Since then I don't eat a huge amount of meat (largely coz it's so fuck of expensive)... Fuck all red meat.... I LOVED meat before hand... But not eating it for so long means I still find some of the textures a bit weird...

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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby old school punk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:32 pm

When i go to a bbq i take big mushrooms and have them in burgers
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby Philfy Vermin » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:00 pm

that would be nice if they went with a bit of falafel i reckons, or cheese and sriracha
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby old school punk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:22 pm

Yeah it would i use to have mushroom egg lettuce beetroot and normally a vege patty as well
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby PertHJ » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:19 pm

Yeah, I can make some pretty dope lentil patties.

I can never tell if its a token thumbs up or a pity "these are actually pretty good"
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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby BanalityDUFF » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:08 pm

PertHJ wrote:Weirdly enough, reading more scientific writing on atheism, evolution, the human mind, and even quantum physics, has made me both marvel how fucking awesome shit is and how incredible it is that *I* am alive, but also how insignificant and meaningless everything is- I guess this could be an argument for how precious life is, but also makes ethical ideas become far less ridged/black and white and are forever changing.


i'm finding the opposite, that reading more is confirming in my mind that veganism is a better choice (with certain caveats, obviously). the more i learn in regards to how the world functions the less i rely on the ethical propositions of others to define my outlook (which at the beginning i did) - because ultimately people can talk their way around every most thing and think they're right but forced against the hard wall of science it's much harder to do so.

the only ethical concept i still maintain is the value of suffering in regards to taking the life/controlling the life of non-human animals; whether or not you value suffering speaks to your own empathy and cannot be quantified and yet i maintain it as a central element in my lifestyle.

also in regards to the insignificance and meaninglessness of it all because of the grand scope of existence, it's important to find proximate meaning in your own life that you can work toward/find solace in (a concept i first read given a name by Greg Graffin in Anarchy Evolution) because if you don't believe in an Ultimate meaning (say an afterlife, god, meaning of life etc) you need a way to ground you against the unyielding force of existence - which i agree is daunting when you consider how long it took our species to get here, to allow me to be writing on a computer, and how insignificant this post and my life will most likely be in the grand tapestry of our species.

i do think that abstaining from the continued violence between species is important for humans to understand - especially given the incredibly destructive technologies we have to wage war against our less privileged earthlings; we're not hunter gatherers anymore, we can send one factory ship to harvest more fish in a year than the entire fisheries of 1800 through 1900 did, for example.
if we as a species are to survive is it really the best option to hasten a mass extinction of every other wild living creature just to suit our dinner plates - or even worse in some aspects to artificially farm these creatures exposing them to terrible conditions which then can make conditions worse for us (super-bugs, the deadening of emotion of workers in these horrible circumstances).
these kinds of ideas are scientific not ethical. it's a practicality of crunching the numbers and seeing that our current inputs and over-running any sort of reasonable out-put.

as for the argument about not eating plants, i ask, where's the science? at the moment the science isn't there and what science there is suggests that plants are not anywhere near the evolutionary stages the animals of this planet (central nervous systems, ability to suffer and so on) are and so at this stage we may as well eat the plants and save the animals. as long as we don't eat the plants into extinction that is ^_-

tl;dr - science is awesome; proximate meaning allows you not to worry so much about the scope of everything; eating animals is still shit-house.

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Re: Breaking....vedge?

Postby PertHJ » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:41 am

^Good post! Thanks Ruben :)
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