Self-sustainability/Back to the land etc

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Rob Anybody
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:43 am

but whats stopping NZ making its own b12 in its labs? and by no means are animals the only source, for consumption they are the best(but not only) source of natural b12, but surely we could start with b12 from plant life in order for it to be considered 'vegan' -if that matters.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:18 pm

I'm not 100% on the matter, but from the scientific research I've read the only forms of B12 that humans can absorb is produced by bacteria that only occurs naturally in animals guts. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

But yeah, I suppose it all depends on how self sustainable you want to be....if we are classing self sustainability as in it was produced within the 'comunity' then all good I guess. Just seems weird in the context of this thread is all, In that not any joe blogs can produce the stuff....kinda makes it seem like food manufactures are OK as long as the ingredients were produced 'locally' (village, town, county, continent...?)....
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Don Lope de Aguirre » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:38 pm

I love this thread! Just wanted to say. Also, here's some lyrics from the John Prine song "Spanish Pipedream", which I think kinda relates:

Blow up your T.V. throw away your paper
Move to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try an find Jesus on your own

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Rob Anybody
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:38 pm

i thought there were several non animal sources of b12, just usually of low concentration, but with the exception of some japanese plant thats stocked with it.

i dont really know tho, just what i heard somewhere.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:34 pm

Yeah I'm really interested to research this more as it's always 'what I heard somewhere', and when I've tried to look for reliable sources (ie not a hokie website put together by who the fuck knows) I generally come up short.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:51 pm

tried asking on veganfitness? they might give you some good leads.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Ventoux » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:55 pm

I'm just reading about this on wikipedia now. This is where herbivorous animals source their B12.

They get it either from bacteria in their rumens:
Image

or by caecophagy which is what bunnies do. It's basically eating cecotrope poos that look like this:
Image

. The 2nd digestion has lots of added bacteria and few extra nutrients. :P

Image

Quite interesting to read how there is no confirmed or proven plant/human gut sources that are suitable for nutrition though.

On nearly every generic vegan info thing I've read it's stated that certain plants and seaweed have b12, and that if we didn't wash vegetables so hardout they would be a good source too.

I think I drink way too much V to ever become B12 deficient.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:04 pm

yeh i heard humans could make a tincture of their own shit, or isolate b12 from it anyway.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:06 pm

PertHJ wrote:Yeah I'm really interested to research this more as it's always 'what I heard somewhere', and when I've tried to look for reliable sources (ie not a hokie website put together by who the fuck knows) I generally come up short.


What I heard somewhere is that the reason vegans don't have as much of an issue with B12 in Asian countries is because they fertilise with human and animal manure and don't wash the vegetables industrially so they ingest enough B12 from the manure.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:13 pm

I just read a book called Organic Inc by Samuel Fromartz which details the history of the organic food industry in the US. I was stoked to find out about a couple who lived off their own farm as vegans and pretty much laid all the groundwork for the back to the land movement in the 60s and 70s. I pulled everything out of Fromartz's book:

Helen and Scott Nearing ran a subsistence farm in New England from the 1930s. They wrote an influential book called Living the Good Life first published in 1954 and reissued in 1970. The Nearings wrote that society “had rejected in practice and in principle our pacifism, our vegetarianism and our collectivism. Under those circumstances, where could outcasts from a dying social order live frugally and decently, and at the same time have sufficient leisure and energy to assist in the speedy liquidation of the disintegrating society and to help replace it with a more workable social system?” The answer was a farm.

The aim was to be as “independent as possible of the commodity and labour markets,” to be free of the stresses of urban life, and to avoid exploitation of the planet, people and animals. The Nearings wrote a ten year plan to achieve these goals, avoiding money as much as possible and selling maple syrup for what cash they did need. The farm was organic, they kept no animals, not even cats and dogs (because they “live dependent subservient lives”); they built stone houses by hand, logged, and planned meticulously.

Their diet was vegan, with fruit in the morning, vegetable soup and whole grains at lunch, and a big salad for dinner. They snacked on nuts, honey, and peanut butter and avoided refined flour, sugar and white rice. They opposed food additives and food processing. Instead of refrigeration, which would shackle them to distant electrical interests, they made do with root cellars. Their time was split between chores, which took half the day, and reading and writing, music, and social activities. All was part of an integrated whole, each portion as valuable as the other, and all fulfilling.

The Nearings had reduced their footprint on the earth in a way hat they found spiritually rewarding (though they were atheists), creating a blue print for four to five million young people to move back to the land, whether on communes or independently. Scott Nearing stayed true to his ideals and died three weeks after his hundredth birthday. Helen lived to ninety one.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby FC » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:20 pm

the croc wrote:
PertHJ wrote:Yeah I'm really interested to research this more as it's always 'what I heard somewhere', and when I've tried to look for reliable sources (ie not a hokie website put together by who the fuck knows) I generally come up short.


What I heard somewhere is that the reason vegans don't have as much of an issue with B12 in Asian countries is because they fertilise with human and animal manure and don't wash the vegetables industrially so they ingest enough B12 from the manure.


Seaweed is a really good plant source of B12.




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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:56 pm

no it's not, it's in a form that the human body can't absorb (not bioactive)

or at least that was the conclusion that quite a few journal articles I read two or three years ago came to
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:43 pm

is there any way to render it bioactive, fermentation that sort of thing?
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:16 pm

Yeah I was thinking along the same lines, but I dunno....

...if it is possible to process it some way to make it bio-active I'd be surprised if it isn't already consumed in that way in some cultures cuisine....otherwise it probably tastes like sweaty balls...
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:36 am

sorry we were talking about seaweed?
i mean there is no culture that has found a way to make seaweed taste like anything but...seaweed.

i just about chunder everytime i smell sushi wrap
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby FC » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:07 pm

PertHJ wrote:no it's not, it's in a form that the human body can't absorb (not bioactive)

or at least that was the conclusion that quite a few journal articles I read two or three years ago came to


Weird. A woman who specialises in vitamins talked to our department and said that it was.



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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby phaedrus » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:20 pm

FC wrote:
PertHJ wrote:no it's not, it's in a form that the human body can't absorb (not bioactive)

or at least that was the conclusion that quite a few journal articles I read two or three years ago came to


Weird. A woman who specialises in vitamins talked to our department and said that it was.


that's the problem with science... those fuckers can never make their mind up...

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:58 pm

phaedrus wrote:
FC wrote:
PertHJ wrote:no it's not, it's in a form that the human body can't absorb (not bioactive)

or at least that was the conclusion that quite a few journal articles I read two or three years ago came to


Weird. A woman who specialises in vitamins talked to our department and said that it was.


that's the problem with science... those fuckers can never make their mind up...

and they preach it like an ever changing gospel.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:00 pm

Rob Anybody wrote:sorry we were talking about seaweed?
i mean there is no culture that has found a way to make seaweed taste like anything but...seaweed.

i just about chunder everytime i smell sushi wrap


I just got off a Korean boat at the start of last week and we were eating seaweed soup daily. I thought it was really nice. Much better than kim chi (spiced fermented cabbage which is another Korean staple).
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Any Day Now » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:58 pm

Mmmm I have to admit, I'm pretty partial to a seaweed salad a few times a week... yummy.

Where do you buy it from? I'm assuming I can't just go pick some out of Owhiro Bay or anything..... the stuff from the restaurants looks like its been processed, all see through and stuff.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:17 pm

Any Day Now wrote:Mmmm I have to admit, I'm pretty partial to a seaweed salad a few times a week... yummy.

Where do you buy it from? I'm assuming I can't just go pick some out of Owhiro Bay or anything..... the stuff from the restaurants looks like its been processed, all see through and stuff.


Which seaweeds are best to eat?

Nori (several species of the red algal genus Porphyra) is probably the most popular seaweed for eating, both historically and today. It is yummy in soups, re-wetted in salads, just as a dried snack, toasted lightly in a dry iron skillet, deep-fat-fried with cooked rolled oats as the Celtic "Laver Bread", and as a food wrap in sushi. Nori sheets are a manufactured food product. Nori was eaten abundantly by indigenous peoples wherever both occurred. It tends to have a sweet, meaty flavor pleasant to most palates.

Dulse, another red alga, is another easy to eat snack but quite salty and often a little fermented in the marketplace; its relatively high fatty acid content results in rancidity after a year or more in storage.

The large brown"kelps" (Kombu/Laminaria groendlandica, Sugar Kelp/Laminaria saccharina, Wakame/Alaria spp.) can be eaten just dried but usually are easier to eat when cooked with grains, legumes or miso soup broth.

The bright green dried fronds of the local giant kelp, "Bull Kelp"(Nereocystis luetkeana). are a great snack, salty and high in vitamins and minerals (up to 50% dry weight), particularly potassium, protein and free amino acids.

Other brown algae, Hijiki/Cystceria geminata, Sargassum/Sargassum mutica, Sea-palm, are usually best cooked with wet food as in soups, miso broth, grains, legumes, vegetable pies and stews.

Sea Lettuce (Ulva lactuca and Monostroma spp.) has a strong seafood taste and odor but is easy to eat as a snack or in salads since it is quite delicate after drying and crumbles easily into tiny tender pieces.


http://www.oceanvegetables.com/harvesting-seaweed.html

Māori traditionally used a few species of red and green seaweed as food, and bull kelp or rimurapa, with its inflatable blades, for storage. Karengo (Porphyra species), the most commonly eaten seaweed, is fairly tasteless when fresh but has a distinctive fishy taste when dried. It is pulled from tidal rocks in winter and spring and usually air-dried before use. Karengo was an important supplement to the winter diet of Māori because of its high nutritional value – up to 30% protein, and rich in vitamins and iodine. It reconstitutes readily in water and may be boiled or fried in fat. Dried karengo was sent to members of the Māori Battalion in the Middle East during the Second World War.


http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAndSky/SeaLife/Seaweed/4/en

No reason why you can't harvest your own really. Apparently all seaweed is eatable but it's more a question of palatability. I was out diving at Makara and Moa point last week, there's heaps of Ulva, karengo and bull kelp around.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:55 pm

Just watched this before, recommend it to everyone. The first half explains about peak oil and why farming needs to change which I'm sure some of you are pretty well versed on already but I thought the gardening/farming stuff in the second half was really interesting. One of the guys talks about sustainably feeding 10 people per acre from a forest garden with about ten days of actual work per year which I found surprising, but super keen to learn more.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:40 pm

the croc wrote:
Any Day Now wrote:Mmmm I have to admit, I'm pretty partial to a seaweed salad a few times a week... yummy.

Where do you buy it from? I'm assuming I can't just go pick some out of Owhiro Bay or anything..... the stuff from the restaurants looks like its been processed, all see through and stuff.


Which seaweeds are best to eat?

Nori (several species of the red algal genus Porphyra) is probably the most popular seaweed for eating, both historically and today. It is yummy in soups, re-wetted in salads, just as a dried snack, toasted lightly in a dry iron skillet, deep-fat-fried with cooked rolled oats as the Celtic "Laver Bread", and as a food wrap in sushi. Nori sheets are a manufactured food product. Nori was eaten abundantly by indigenous peoples wherever both occurred. It tends to have a sweet, meaty flavor pleasant to most palates.

Dulse, another red alga, is another easy to eat snack but quite salty and often a little fermented in the marketplace; its relatively high fatty acid content results in rancidity after a year or more in storage.

The large brown"kelps" (Kombu/Laminaria groendlandica, Sugar Kelp/Laminaria saccharina, Wakame/Alaria spp.) can be eaten just dried but usually are easier to eat when cooked with grains, legumes or miso soup broth.

The bright green dried fronds of the local giant kelp, "Bull Kelp"(Nereocystis luetkeana). are a great snack, salty and high in vitamins and minerals (up to 50% dry weight), particularly potassium, protein and free amino acids.

Other brown algae, Hijiki/Cystceria geminata, Sargassum/Sargassum mutica, Sea-palm, are usually best cooked with wet food as in soups, miso broth, grains, legumes, vegetable pies and stews.

Sea Lettuce (Ulva lactuca and Monostroma spp.) has a strong seafood taste and odor but is easy to eat as a snack or in salads since it is quite delicate after drying and crumbles easily into tiny tender pieces.


http://www.oceanvegetables.com/harvesting-seaweed.html

Māori traditionally used a few species of red and green seaweed as food, and bull kelp or rimurapa, with its inflatable blades, for storage. Karengo (Porphyra species), the most commonly eaten seaweed, is fairly tasteless when fresh but has a distinctive fishy taste when dried. It is pulled from tidal rocks in winter and spring and usually air-dried before use. Karengo was an important supplement to the winter diet of Māori because of its high nutritional value – up to 30% protein, and rich in vitamins and iodine. It reconstitutes readily in water and may be boiled or fried in fat. Dried karengo was sent to members of the Māori Battalion in the Middle East during the Second World War.


http://www.teara.govt.nz/EarthSeaAndSky/SeaLife/Seaweed/4/en

No reason why you can't harvest your own really. Apparently all seaweed is eatable but it's more a question of palatability. I was out diving at Makara and Moa point last week, there's heaps of Ulva, karengo and bull kelp around.


wow, youve just about convinced me with that, except i find it hard to swallow.

on an aside ive been learning about all the plants you can eat that grow wild, its an amazing amount and some of the most common weeds are actually edible, i just figured out which plant is fat hen, will be eating some very soon.
edible seaweed is something worth adding to that lexicon..
altho sea lettuce is a strange one, that stuff smells absolutely foul, in matua they employ tractors to scrape it all up the smell is so disgusting.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:31 pm

FC wrote:
PertHJ wrote:no it's not, it's in a form that the human body can't absorb (not bioactive)

or at least that was the conclusion that quite a few journal articles I read two or three years ago came to


Weird. A woman who specialises in vitamins talked to our department and said that it was.



Aidan


So what you're saying is that you believed a hippy?

:P
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:56 pm

Rob Anybody wrote:on an aside ive been learning about all the plants you can eat that grow wild, its an amazing amount and some of the most common weeds are actually edible, i just figured out which plant is fat hen, will be eating some very soon.
edible seaweed is something worth adding to that lexicon..
altho sea lettuce is a strange one, that stuff smells absolutely foul, in matua they employ tractors to scrape it all up the smell is so disgusting.


Check out that video man, the forest garden part would most probably appeal to you. The examples used are British but there's no reason you couldn't plant a forest garden in NZ. Once it's established it's pretty much care free.

I was of the understanding that there are relatively bugger all native plants that are worth eating. Ie most of them are pretty unpalatable and un-nutritious due to evolving without any mammals. But I guess there are heaps of introduced wild plants now to make up for that.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:58 pm

This is pretty much a mini-version of Ishmael by Daniel Quinn but worth a read. I've been reading a lot of this kind of stuff for the last year or so which lead me question what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. When you realise how fucked everything is it's kind of an inevitable conclusion that shit will change dramatically in our life times due to resource shortages.

It’s All the Same Culture

by Chuck Burr
4/20/09

Our political discussions and media coverage are far too shallow to be useful. We must go deeper and much further back to understand the world today and learn how to get where we want to go.

Almost everyone misunderstands what culture is. Most think it is soda pop, pop stars, blue jeans, language, and TV. Some think it is capitalism, communism, or progressivism. Some see culture as Western culture or Eastern culture.

Image

Look at the motorcycle picture. The motorcycles will fool you. All of the people above belong to the same culture, as does a soccer mom in a Chicago suburb. Keep guessing. This makes a huge difference in how we understand what is happening today and where we are going.

Our Culture

The answer is, that we are all Takers. We all belong to the same culture, tea-to-tiler or Taliban, one culture. The Dali Lama or Duncan Donuts cop, one culture. Our Taker culture began 10,000 years ago with the agricultural revolution when they locked up the food, began the population–food race, invented war, started privatizing land, and ended the formerly one universal religion of animism. A culture is made up of many things, but the above are far more important than whether someone eats tabouli or tater tots. It was forgotten in just a few generation that there used to be probably 10,000 unique Leaver cultures before our now universal Taker culture—The Great Forgetting.

Some suggest that modern progressive exuberance has replaced Christianity as the modern religion or culture. The believe is that “here and now” and a better life for each generation from technology has replaced Christianity's faith in an “unseen unknown afterlife” and will culminate in a technological singularity that will save humanity.

They are right to identify exuberance, but today’s exuberance is the same that caused a tribe of agriculturalists between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers to start overtaking their Leaver neighbors in an unending conquest that is now largely complete. The age of Enlightenment, the Renaissance, and Manifest Destiny are past examples of the same exuberance. The ultimate hubris was inventing one god in a human form. Today, all but one or two million Leavers, versus of 6.8 billion Takers, are left alive or are not yet assimilated.

It’s Pointless To Discuss Anything Else

Peak oil and financial collapse seem important because they immediately affect us and are within our lifetime scale. But, they are just noise along the way of our 10,000 year Taker cultural odyssey. Nothing will change for our children until our culture ends. It will be one rise and fall, migration and conquest, resource war after resource war on and on until our culture is replaced with a resilient diversity of many new cultures. Until then we are just building and operating the Taker prison for our children and ourselves. Only when our culture ends, will the earth be allowed to start healing itself. A change of leadership of the same culture is also a waste of time.

Here comes the important part of the essay: discussing anything else today except walking away from our culture is pointless. This has to do with the difference between programs and vision or story. When Columbus invaded Haiti, he brought with him the greatest virus of all, a new cultural story.
The story of Leaver cultures before the agricultural revolution was, “Humanity belongs to the earth.” The Taker cultural story is, “The earth belongs to man.” This has been the crux of the creation and perpetuation of our culture for the last 10,000 years. We have had technology since the digging stick; technology has nothing to do with culture. It is how you value humanity in relation to “our relations” or the earth and what you do with the technology that matters.

A program is doing more of the same. If the effort in Afghanistan is failing, send more troops. If test score are falling, spend more on a failed educational system. If the banks are failing, send them more money.

A program is like a stick in the river of our culture. Programs run contrary to the cultural story. Recycling is a program to combat our consumer economy. Smart grids are a program to combat our excessive use of cheap fossil fuel energy. Green building is a program to combat urban sprawl. Food aid is a program to combat the population–food race. Organic farming is a program to combat industrial totalitarian agriculture.

Programs are fruitless efforts to combat the symptoms of our cultural story that the world belongs to man. Until the story is reversed, all programs are a complete waste of time. If new cultures do not replace our Taker culture, there will be no change in course or Great Turning. If you truly want peace, social justice, and Ecotopia, you have to starting living under the remembered story that humanity belongs to the earth.

The Problem is Not Humanity

Humanity has lived on the earth for three or four million years. For millions of years we lived in harmony or symbiosis with the ecosystem. We had a stable population. A “give it to them as good as you get” it erratic retaliator strategy existed instead of war. Tribalism and animism were the universal human organizational structures and religion. Tribalism is the one and only evolutionarily proven human social organizational system. Tribalism is to humans what herds are for deer, pods are for whales, schools are for fish, and hives are for bees. The problem began 10,000 years ago when our culture was created.

You Cannot Invent a New Social Organizational System

Here is the rub. You just can’t invent a new social organizational system like a tribe. We have been trying to perfect a new social organizational system called civilization for 10,000 years. But, civilization continues to fail more each year for more people and species. If civilization was going to create world peace and plenty for all it would have done so already. It never can because a story based on one species taking everything it can gets it’s hands on will never work. We even treat members of our own species as poorly as we do all other species we exploit.

The Great Remembering

The only solution worth discussion is developing new cultures that live by the original story that humanity belongs to the earth. Going green is not enough. Driving a hybrid and having a backyard vegetable garden is not going to get you there. It’s deeper than that. I am beginning to thing we are going to have to start depaving, give up our iPods, and start making music for ourselves. I am not sure how far this is going to have to go. But I do know that it has to go back to a level in which our population and method of consumption allows the earth to start rebuilding biodiversity and topsoil.

We will have to remember our relationship with the cultivars, how to give support to get support, how to live on local sunlight, and we might even have to remember animism. We have a long way to go. I am starting the journey for my children and myself.

Hierarchies have strong defenses for attacks from below. However, they have no defense from abandonment. The point is we have to create new cultures that borrow from what we can from the present that fits within the structure of the past. This is the only way we will make a difference. We have to become the change we want to see, find like-minded friends, and start our own local tribes. We must develop a high enough level of group self-reliance that will allow us to walk away. We need doers, not talkers, not surfers, and not bloggers. We need to be walking toward something better, not away from something we don’t like. Its time to start living your truth.


We Are All The Same Culture
There's more to life than thrash
So let's get really smashed
and do the heavy head dance

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Rob Anybody
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:43 am

the croc wrote:
Rob Anybody wrote:on an aside ive been learning about all the plants you can eat that grow wild, its an amazing amount and some of the most common weeds are actually edible, i just figured out which plant is fat hen, will be eating some very soon.
edible seaweed is something worth adding to that lexicon..
altho sea lettuce is a strange one, that stuff smells absolutely foul, in matua they employ tractors to scrape it all up the smell is so disgusting.


Check out that video man, the forest garden part would most probably appeal to you. The examples used are British but there's no reason you couldn't plant a forest garden in NZ. Once it's established it's pretty much care free.

I was of the understanding that there are relatively bugger all native plants that are worth eating. Ie most of them are pretty unpalatable and un-nutritious due to evolving without any mammals. But I guess there are heaps of introduced wild plants now to make up for that.


saved, will watch later, had a discussion last night with someone who is planning a bit of an isolated community in the south island i think i mentioned it in this trhead, quite a few people i know are interested in doing this, im getting more and more interested in the idea.
it wont be vegan, but there will definitely be vegetarians present.

there are not many native plants you can eat its true, and many of those that you can require a laborious process to render edible, and still not usually palatable, but there are now literally thousands of introduced species mostly treated as weeds that grow wild, most of them are known by maori names as they are often the only ones who eat them, puha being a prime example, its known as sow thistle in england as it is fed mostly to pigs, same deal with fat hen, which is similar to quinoa and is growing as a weed all over the damn place.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Rob Anybody
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:14 pm

that movie was great cheers croc, il be showing that to a few people for sure, my knowledge of plants is increasing at a pretty cool rate too, cant wait to start this thing.
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:35 pm

I've been emailing a few people at Vic Uni with ideas for going back to study based on what's been discussed in this thread. No one seems to be interested, not sure if I'm not explaining myself properly or what I'm trying to study doesn't fit into the university spectrum. I'm not too worried though, it's just that personally I find university a good medium to force you to work and actually finish things. I've got too many projects already that I've half started and then got side tracked into something else.

I've been looking out for permaculture courses too, came across this one coming up in Melbourne that looks pretty comprehensive. Might end up getting my shit together and going over for it.


Bill Mollison and Geoff Lawton combine forces to teach the 2009 PERMACULTURE DESIGN CERTIFICATE COURSE

Monday, 21st September through to Saturday, 3rd October 2009 at Melbourne University, Trinity College

“This course has already changed a lot of the world - Come help us finish the job!” ~ Bill Mollison April 27, 2005

BILL MOLLISON, the legendary Permaculture teacher, promoter and designer - who, over 26 years of non-stop travelling, designing, teaching and writing, personally planted the seeds of Permaculture in over 120 countries. Bill is the founding director of The Permaculture Institute, the first and longest running Permaculture Institute in existence.

GEOFF LAWTON who is world renowned for field expertise and extensive teaching experience in the ecological “badlands” of Earth, areas of extreme cultural conflicts, as well as more friendly environments. Founding director of the acclaimed Permaculture Research Institute, Geoff is working in more countries and co-ordinating more projects on the ground than any other Permaculture Institute today.

Earth’s ecosystems are in crisis. Permaculture offers practical, sustainable solutions. You can be part of the exciting adventure of positive world change.

EXPAND YOUR HORIZONS! BE PART OF THIS HISTORIC EVENT!

To book in and register please fill out the registration form below and send back to Tagari Publications and The Permaculture Institute together with your payment.

We encourage you to book early to avoid disappointment and to take advantage of the early bird discounts available.

The venue for this course is Trinity College, Melbourne University. We have booked an excellent Lecture Theatre and there will be delicious morning and afternoon teas provided. Details are listed in the flyer below. If you have questions you can ring Tagari Publications and the Permaculture Institute on 61 (0) 3 6445 0945 and we will be pleased to assist you.

This course is the full 72 hour Permaculture Design Certificate course including all theory and practical exercises necessary to enable a student to become a Permaculture designer and teacher and can lead on to full teacher registration and Diploma of Permaculture Design with the Permaculture Institute.


http://www.tagari.com/

Its AU$1750 though so a hefty investment. I'm not sure if at this stage I would learn more from just WOOFing as much as possible around New Zealand and meeting people who are actually doing it for real.
There's more to life than thrash
So let's get really smashed
and do the heavy head dance

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FC
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby FC » Fri May 01, 2009 10:04 am

PertHJ wrote:
FC wrote:
PertHJ wrote:no it's not, it's in a form that the human body can't absorb (not bioactive)

or at least that was the conclusion that quite a few journal articles I read two or three years ago came to


Weird. A woman who specialises in vitamins talked to our department and said that it was.



Aidan


So what you're saying is that you believed a hippy?

:P


Hippies dont have PhDs, they have organic gardens and ponchos.




Aidan
PertHJ wrote:I disagree with Aidans divergence from ska music, but agree with his correct use of scientific terms


Ois II Men|Hatewanx|XfrankgrimesX


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