Self-sustainability/Back to the land etc

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the croc
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Self-sustainability/Back to the land etc

Postby the croc » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:03 pm

Edit: changed title to better reflect rest of thread

I've been recently reading a book called "The Alternative" about the history of communal life in North America. It got me thinking on how difficult it is to be truly self sustainable and grow all your own food, especially when you have a family/community to support.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that it would take less land and be much easier to use animals for help with work, fertiliser and sustenance (assuming a post-oil world). I've been trying to track down vegan self-sustainable communities with not much luck. There are plenty of vegan communities 'interested' in self sustainability but not any I kind find truly practising it 100%.

I think NZ vegetarians and vegans (as does everyone else) rely on world trade and the oil economy immensely for importing various products and am wondering just how much of this could actually be grown in NZ taking into consideration climate etc.

I'm not out to have a go at anyone I'm genuinely interested in this. I'm seriously thinking about going back to uni to do a masters on food availability security and how NZ could support itself if food imports halted, as could potentially happen as oil prices continue to rise. Keen to hear other peoples thoughts on this, especially on how easy it would be to vegan and grow all you own food.

Edit: I guess a good place to start is traditional vegetarian/vegan cultures. Anyone know of any?
Last edited by the croc on Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby phaedrus » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:19 pm

the only thing stopping people from living a locally sourced sustainable diet is being used to things in shiny packets from a supermarket. before there was international trade, or even motorised transport for local/regional stuff, people managed to survive in our fine country. you would end up with a diet that could appear pretty plain due to our climate making us suitable for certain foods and not others... and not being able to ship stuff in from far off lands when they are out of season locally, but there is no reason you couldn't survive on it... you'd be focusing your diet on whatever was ready to harvest at the time as well, so you'd end up with a month of having cabbage every day, then a month of having spinach every day etc.

there's another book which got quite popular amongst hipsters a couple years back called 'animal, vegetable, miracle' - i think it was probably the first time most americans had even realised that the food doesn't actually grow on the shelf at the supermarket - http://www.animalvegetablemiracle.com/ - they basically try to eat only locally produced food for a year, including growing their own food, buying from local farmers markets... they eat meat and other animal products, but the general idea is the same. at the bottom of the recipes page on their site they do seasonal recipes, and you can see ingredients coming and going throughout the year - some might find it limiting, i think it's actually a cool way to connect to the world around you... and actually notice that the world changes during the seasons - being able to buy whatever you want whenever you want in terms of 'fresh' food just seems unnatural to me, even tho it is very convenient

as for using animals, i couldn't see how it would let you use less land... but it would certainly be easier than hand working all your land... if you were super-keen i'm sure you could build a human powered farming device, but using motor or beast powered techniques would probably be the easiest.

ps. don't feel like you should say you're not having a go at people etc... people should be thinking about this shit as we are so incredibly wasteful in terms of heaps of our produce being sent offshore while we still import huge amounts of shit and things like that. there is really no good reason to do this, other than people thinking we deserve to be spoilt for choice. unfortunately this attitude was built up before we understood the impact our wastefulness has on the world around us.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:05 pm

Cheers for the reply phaedrus, appreciate it heaps man.

phaedrus wrote:the only thing stopping people from living a locally sourced sustainable diet is being used to things in shiny packets from a supermarket. before there was international trade, or even motorised transport for local/regional stuff, people managed to survive in our fine country. you would end up with a diet that could appear pretty plain due to our climate making us suitable for certain foods and not others... and not being able to ship stuff in from far off lands when they are out of season locally, but there is no reason you couldn't survive on it... you'd be focusing your diet on whatever was ready to harvest at the time as well, so you'd end up with a month of having cabbage every day, then a month of having spinach every day etc.


Yeah we definitely need a huge cultural shift. I've been involved (very much on the fringes) of the Transition Town movement in Wellington in Newtown and Aro Valley which is still pretty young but there are quite a few people starting to get involved. The Transition Handbook(link) is pretty much the bible for the movement. Another book I found pretty interesting is one I picked up pretty cheap in Arty Bees Bookshop called 'Your Own Resources(link) about practical self sufficiency. It's a bit dated now but still has heaps of good stuff in it.

phaedrus wrote:there's another book which got quite popular amongst hipsters a couple years back called 'animal, vegetable, miracle' - i think it was probably the first time most americans had even realised that the food doesn't actually grow on the shelf at the supermarket - http://www.animalvegetablemiracle.com/ - they basically try to eat only locally produced food for a year, including growing their own food, buying from local farmers markets... they eat meat and other animal products, but the general idea is the same. at the bottom of the recipes page on their site they do seasonal recipes, and you can see ingredients coming and going throughout the year - some might find it limiting, i think it's actually a cool way to connect to the world around you... and actually notice that the world changes during the seasons - being able to buy whatever you want whenever you want in terms of 'fresh' food just seems unnatural to me, even tho it is very convenient


Yeah I think it was in that doco 'The Future of Food' they found similar things when they showed school children raw carrots and tomatoes they didn't know what they were as they'd only ever come across most vegetables in processed form. I couldn't beleive it when I first saw it.

phaedrus wrote:as for using animals, i couldn't see how it would let you use less land... but it would certainly be easier than hand working all your land... if you were super-keen i'm sure you could build a human powered farming device, but using motor or beast powered techniques would probably be the easiest.


Yeah I wasn't entirely sure about this either. I grew up on a six acre farmlet for 7 years and we had free range chickens and 6-10 steers running around as well as a small orchard and vege garden. I was just thinking of the differences of how much food you could grow on a 6-10 acre block of land if you ate animal products vs if you didn't.

For example on the farmlet where I grew up you could potentially accommodate a few dairy cows, a few steers for meat and a bull for breeding (and maybe ploughing etc), a couple of goats for milk/meat/skins, and a few sheep for milk/meat/wool/skins, heaps of free range chickens for meat and eggs and a rooster for breeding. All animals would produce fertiliser to be used on a large vegetable garden which can provide seasonal fruit and vegetables. I imagine this would pretty much be a full time job keeping everything running but would sustain at the very least one person pretty comfortably. I realise this is massively simplified and I'm not a farmer so not entirely sure on grazing needs. This would pretty much be the same as how small farms were run before WWII and the introduction of petrochemical sprays.

The extreme opposite opposite of this would be a strictly vegan farmlet using no animal products at all on on the same six acres. There would obviously be a wide range of seasonal fruit and vegetables but I have no idea if this would be enough to sustain someone for an extended length of time, especially when you can no longer go to the supermarket and pick up multivitamins to fill nutrient gaps for essential amino acids such Lysine and Tryptophan which are poorly represented in plant proteins as well as vitamin deficiency's. Apparently B12 depletion isn't much of a problem in Asian countries for vegans as most vegetables are fertilised with animal manure and not normally washed to Western standards. Animal fertiliser wouldn't be an option on this theoretical farm. Which leads to me to ask a question I don't have an answer for, how do you then adequately fertilise the soil apart from crop rotation which I can't see fully exacerbating the problem?

I guess my main point here is this: a vegan lifestyle is only possible in New Zealand (all Western) society because of international trade and large corporations and it would be very difficult (perhaps impossible) to live a long-term self sustainable vegan lifestyle. To live a workable self sustainable lifestyle you would have to be vegetarian at the very least. I could very well be wrong and would love someone to prove me wrong, but that's what I've concluded at this stage.

phaedrus wrote:ps. don't feel like you should say you're not having a go at people etc... people should be thinking about this shit as we are so incredibly wasteful in terms of heaps of our produce being sent offshore while we still import huge amounts of shit and things like that. there is really no good reason to do this, other than people thinking we deserve to be spoilt for choice. unfortunately this attitude was built up before we understood the impact our wastefulness has on the world around us.


Haha yeah, just trying to avoid the inevitable flaming from some quarters. I was at a Green Party talk last year talking about security of food supply and they were saying how New Zealand used to have 10-15 full time garlic growers in New Zealand. Then when some trade deal was passed with China 10 or so years ago the NZ market was flooded with cheap garlic. Long story short New Zealand now has no garlic growers and all our garlic is now imported from China (apart from a few small scale farmers market operations). Woohoo free trade!

NZ's position with security of food supply if international trading faltered is not good either. At that same Green Party talk last year Jim Anderton (former Agriculture Minister) was quoted as saying he was "as worried about food supply as he was about martians invading". I can't imagine the current government being any more progressive in the is area. There would be major issues for Nz to actually support itself if food imports get disrupted/halted, as could potentially happen as oil prices continue to rise and/or the financial crises worsens.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby kettles » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:49 pm

I've always thought about this as well. I remember when my dad started growing potatoes in our backyard, our family of four had them pretty much every night for a good few months. Then came the beans, cabbage, etc

Animal fertiliser wouldn't be an option on this theoretical farm.


Why not, it happens in the wild? I guess you could go as far as only using manure from animals that aren't being raised for food. Buy the dairy industry's excess animals and let them live out their lives on a large plot of land and only take their manure.

I think that growing a variety of veges would be difficult for one person. Instead, each of them could focus on growing one thing and trade. One house could be fuckin ace at growing silverbeet, while their neighbours would have good potatoes.

What's NZ like for growing rice, wheat, etc?

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:33 pm

kettles wrote:Why not, it happens in the wild? I guess you could go as far as only using manure from animals that aren't being raised for food. Buy the dairy industry's excess animals and let them live out their lives on a large plot of land and only take their manure.


I guess it just depends on how strictly you define vegan.

kettles wrote:I think that growing a variety of veges would be difficult for one person. Instead, each of them could focus on growing one thing and trade. One house could be fuckin ace at growing silverbeet, while their neighbours would have good potatoes.


I think monoculture is something you definitely want to avoid. Crop rotation is essential to avoiding many plant diseases, especially when farming is organic. Trading between neighbours would certainly be good, but in reality I think we're a fair way off from most communities being able to do this on any meaningful scale.

At the moment I'm more concerned with seeing how sustainable single farms can be 'off the grid'. I'm seriously hoping to have my own block of land within the next 5 years where I can nut some of this stuff out for myself. I know there's a guy out the back of Inglewood, Taranaki who lives off $1000 a year. Sounds like he eats possum and rabbit a lot, but he's the closest I've heard of anyone completely removing themselves from mainstream society. I'm trying to get a contact for him at the moment, although I imagine he's pretty hard to get hold of with no electricity/phone/vehicle.

kettles wrote:What's NZ like for growing rice, wheat, etc?


I've found a Japanese guy, Yoshi Sakurai, who grows rice in Kaiwaka. Apparently most Japanese strains are grown in warmer climates than ours but he's using a special cold resistant strain. Apparently he reckons it could be viable year round in parts of NZ. Other than that most of our rice is imported from Australia.

Article on Yoshi Sakurai
Yoshi Sakurai's Website

Wheat is grown mainly in Canterbury in New Zealand but we still get a lot imported from Australia. I know it can't be grown with too much rain as the grains get fungal infections and go moldy.

There's a Sustainable Living Fair in New Plymouth this weekend which unfortunately I can't make but it looks like it has a heap of good stuff on: http://www.taranakisustainable.blogspot.com/
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Any Day Now » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:54 am

To be honest that would be my dream....my aunty and uncle have a farmlet, and supply most of their own veges, eggs and meat, but as they say, its a no lifestyle block, rather than the other way around. I personally tried this year to eat my own produce as much as I could, but its hard when you work 10 hours a day and train 2, aswell as just trying to get the basics like cooking, cleaning and washing done, let alone spending time in the garden.... I think alot of people come up against this when it comes to trying to live sustainably.

I think your idea of trade could get around this problem. but again like you said, it would mean getting the community involved, which is faced by the problem of time, people just dont seem to want to dedicate as much as they could. Its a big sacrifice really to people who are so used to being consumers, and how many people these days would rather get their hands dirty than play playstation?

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby xsfat » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:04 am

its hard when you work 10 hours a day and train 2, aswell as just trying to get the basics like cooking, cleaning and washing done, let alone spending time in the garden.... I think alot of people come up against this when it comes to trying to live sustainably

just an observation - I doubt you could really mix a modern individualist lifestyle with one that is truly self-sustainable in the long term.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby kettles » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:05 am

the croc wrote:
kettles wrote:I think monoculture is something you definitely want to avoid. Crop rotation is essential to avoiding many plant diseases, especially when farming is organic. Trading between neighbours would certainly be good, but in reality I think we're a fair way off from most communities being able to do this on any meaningful scale.

At the moment I'm more concerned with seeing how sustainable single farms can be 'off the grid'. I'm seriously hoping to have my own block of land within the next 5 years where I can nut some of this stuff out for myself. I know there's a guy out the back of Inglewood, Taranaki who lives off $1000 a year. Sounds like he eats possum and rabbit a lot, but he's the closest I've heard of anyone completely removing themselves from mainstream society. I'm trying to get a contact for him at the moment, although I imagine he's pretty hard to get hold of with no electricity/phone/vehicle.


Ok, that makes sense about monoculture. Where are you planning on having this plot of land? It's a good idea, but land ain't cheap. What exactly would you grow?

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:17 pm

xsfat wrote:
its hard when you work 10 hours a day and train 2, aswell as just trying to get the basics like cooking, cleaning and washing done, let alone spending time in the garden.... I think alot of people come up against this when it comes to trying to live sustainably

just an observation - I doubt you could really mix a modern individualist lifestyle with one that is truly self-sustainable in the long term.


Yeah that's definitely true. If we being completely honest though a 100% self-sustainable lifestyle is impossible the way society is set up today. In my mind I always tend to link 100% self-sustainability with 100% independence, which is a mistake, ideally you would want to exist as part of a larger community for the interchange of skills, produce and ideas. Just practical things like tools have to come from somewhere. It's a lot easier to buy them than make your own.

Derek Jensen in Endgame makes a really interesting argument about why we feel so attached to mainstream society. Basically he argues that the relationship between an individual and societies authoritative structures is the same as an abusive relationship between a male and female or between abusive parents and children. We spend a lot of our time trying to please the abuser (ie fitting in/being docile/conforming to the white picket fence dream) in order to avoid violence (police and prison). He goes into a lot more depth and explains it much more convincingly than I can but it's definitely worth a look.

Ok, that makes sense about monoculture. Where are you planning on having this plot of land? It's a good idea, but land ain't cheap. What exactly would you grow?


It's still very much a pie in the sky dream at the moment. I grew up most of my life in New Plymouth and have been looking around here, it's a pretty good spot in terms of climate and rainfall. The place I picture in my mind is 10 acres, 6 in farmland four in bush with a stream running through it with a waterwheel for help with power generation.

My other concern is how to make a living. The road to self-sustainability is a long one and like all things it costs money. I guess a lot of people have their lifestyle blocks as bed and breakfasts/eco retreats and sell produce off the land. While that would be all good I'm not sure how feasible that will be in the future. Currently I work offshore 6 weeks at a time which pays pretty well but isn't really an option when trying to develop a farm, vege garden and orchard. Sounds like I need some partners! I've actually talked to quite a few people who are keen, but there's a big difference between talk and actually doing it.

As for what exactly I would grow? Again, can't really say as I haven't worked that out yet and would imagine it would change as things develop. I just picked up some second hand books in the weekend, one on vege gardening, one on fruit trees from around the world and another on herb growing and their uses. I guess that's one of my main motivations for wanting to go back to uni eventually, so I'll be forced to nut this stuff out in detail and hopefully get someone to pay me while I'm doing it.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby dustbinflowers » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:54 pm

I've been thinking about this stuff for quite sometime as well. I'd go partners with you- except I'm more likely to end up somewhere between North Otago and Southland, which further limits what I could grow. Swedes, potatoes and eel!
I know someone who is growing lentils and chickpeas and soybeans in Rotorua, but it's small scale and a bit of an experiment. It shows it can be done though.
I think the biggest thing with living self-sustainably (vegan or otherwise) would be dealing with a major change in diet- less wheat based for a start.
Personally I think it would be pretty hard to do it vegan- as far as I know there's no soya beans grown here.

Croc, you observing? with Mfish? If so, have you run into a guy called Rodney Hansen?
Do you know about NZ Treecrops association?
And there used to be a biodynamic croptree nursery in Motueka who had a lot of cool heirloom species, like medlar and quince, otherwise there's Koanga Gardens, Kings Seeds.

Also, for buying land for sustainable or ecological restoration purposes, check out an organisation called the Prometheus Trust. I don't know if they are still around, but I know of a few people who got loans off them to buy land. Apparently they invest money only in ecologically onto it areas.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:11 pm

im probably gunna move to a place with all the above in mind later this year, looking at somewhere north of the south, we have lots of cash behind us.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby dustbinflowers » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:21 pm

I'm loving Te Anau at the moment , would love to live here(been here a month working), but down here has a hellishly short growing season. I'm dreaming of Moeraki or Kakanui, or Seacliff.
More likely to buy a house in Dunedin or Chch in the next five years though. Stepping stones...






oh yeah, was that a whats his face reference? Meester Chapman?
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:07 pm

haha nah, but one of the guys involved in this wants for some reason i havnt yet been able to fathom be near them so we can 'hide behind them' i dunno what the fuck hes on about to be honest, but the money wants to be in or around that area so thats where it will be.

id probably prefer taranaki or somewhere up by katikati in the hills, or if sacrificing fertile ground for remote/safe location then id wanna go central south island.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby the croc » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:53 pm

dustbinflowers wrote:Croc, you observing? with Mfish? If so, have you run into a guy called Rodney Hansen?
Do you know about NZ Treecrops association?
And there used to be a biodynamic croptree nursery in Motueka who had a lot of cool heirloom species, like medlar and quince, otherwise there's Koanga Gardens, Kings Seeds.


Yeah I'm observing at the moment, started September last year. Haven't run into Rodney Hansen, but there's about 75 observers on the books and most of the trips are solo so we don't meet too many of the other observers. I'll look out for him though.

Hadn't heard of NZ Treecrops, just checking it out now, looks very useful.

Speaking of Mot, I've spent quite a bit of time around the Nelson area lately and would be pretty keen on living there for a while, I've jut heard that the winters can be pretty cold from a guy who used to work on orchards there.

Cheers for all the other info too!
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Any Day Now » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:11 am

dustbinflowers wrote:Personally I think it would be pretty hard to do it vegan- as far as I know there's no soya beans grown here.




Theres some in my garden.... they arnt doing the best they could being in a wellington climate, but they are doing pretty well.... Its definately doable to grow soy beans productively further up north.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby phaedrus » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:40 am

i'd think that a lack of soy beans would be about the best thing that could happen to most vegans ;) might allow for getting away from all the shit "here's a recipe i found but replaced butter with margarine, and milk with soy milk" books... i think i'm getting too keen on simple whole foods in my old age...

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby miss heart » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:52 pm

I know this is in Vegetarian and Vegan but... I'm neither and although not hugely self sufficient I manage to eat well, local and safe to say my diet is very sustainable.

I buy local meet from the local organic butcher, farmed not twenty minutes from my doorstep.

http://www.tidalfloworganics.co.nz/catalog/home.php

the Fruit, veges and bread I buy from the local farmers market or local bakery all which support the slow food philosophy. I buy local beer and wine. (beer from leigh sawmill, wine from various vineyards)

Someone mentioned Koanga seeds, they are awesome, most seed varieties from local plant stores/supermarkets etc are from overseas non organic fruits and dont grow as well in NZ conditions.

A few things... unrelated to what you're talking about of course...

Garlic is very easy to grow, plant on shortest day, harvest on longest (possibly the other way around i forget) Don't buy Chinese garlic, in contains a disease that kills NZ garlic. If you leave cloves of NZ garlic to sprout they are relatively easy to grown, harvest when the sprouts have died off, and ready to use a couple of months later when they are dry enough.Someone also said NZ has no garlic growers? bullshit. There is huge garlic grower at Warkworth - I will get the name for you, and there must be more.

If any of you guys are interested in permacultra, sustainabilty this website is good http://www.rainbowvalleyfarm.co.nz/ They hold regular workshops up here, accept workers, and the website is very informative, unfortunately Joe the founder died last year but if you google him - Joe Polaischer you will find lots of info about the seminars he has put on around the world, and lots on youtube i believe.

I will post something soon about Bokashi composting and EM (effective microorganisms) soon...

If you shop around you can find a lot of nuts, muesli, cheeses, lentils, veges grown close to you - or in NZ that have been grown using sustainable practices and/or with permaculture in mind. It's aall about researching and finding what works better for you. Ask at your local fruit and veg shop what NZ/Local produce they have available, supply and demand. If more people become aware of eating locally then joe fruitshop blogs will need to start caring as well.

I have some great books on self sustainability - I will post Author when I get home, worth a look.

Fruit/Herbs etc can be used for a lot of household uses. Lemongrass, mint and basil - all very easy to go, make a great fly deterant, pick in bunchs and place on sills and tables, also rubbing lemongrass on yourself will deter mozzies.

Someone said something about seasonal eating, and only eating cabbage every day for a month? Seasonal produce is that for a reason, you'll find that in general people who eat seasonal are more healthier in terms of immunity etc, what's in season just happens to contain what we need in our bodies for that particular time of year, there's always a good amount of produce in season at all times, it's just creating a garden and cycle that supports all the different types, and having a variety of fruits, veges, grains, nuts and animal products available at different times.

The income solution would be to sell at farmers markets, have animals to trade for meat, produce pickles, jams, and have a like minded community around you that could provide you with things you don't/can't grow or keep.
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby miss heart » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:54 pm

Cant find the info on Bokashi composting but am attending a seminar next week so will post some notes
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:59 pm

my dad has commercially grown garlic in the past, when you live next to a garlic field you smell like garlic CONSTANTLY

not a great thing when youre 12/13
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby miss heart » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:02 pm

http://www.rainbowvalleyfarm.co.nz/inde ... age345.htm

101 things you can do to reduce your ecological footprint. tried copying and pasting but didnt work so well
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haiku terror shades
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby haiku terror shades » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:09 pm

phaedrus wrote:you'd be focusing your diet on whatever was ready to harvest at the time as well, so you'd end up with a month of having cabbage every day, then a month of having spinach every day etc.


ah, but you are forgetting cellared fruit and vege, preserves and non-perishable foods - there is no reason why you can't have tomato based spaghetti sauces all through winter!

the croc wrote:Wheat is grown mainly in Canterbury in New Zealand but we still get a lot imported from Australia. I know it can't be grown with too much rain as the grains get fungal infections and go moldy.


as far as I am aware all of the 'hard wheat' for bread making is imported from Australia.

:(

btw, this is a great thread - there are so many competent, knowledgeable people on here.

I just tried an infuriating stint on 'Ooooby' and it is refreshing to be back on here.

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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby kettles » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:23 pm

where's a good place to start reading to learn about this shit, books preferably, I get ADD on the internet

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PertHJ
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:33 am

Coming from a nutritional angle the concern I'd have with self sustainable-vegan diet would be the lack of fortified foods. A vegan diet is piss easy in the 'modern' world, but without stuff like fortified B12 you run the risk of developing illness.

I'd love to live within a self sustainable community/country
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kettles
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby kettles » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:57 am

I thought it was something to do with washing our veges too much, and losing the B12 that grows in the soil? something like that.

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Rob Anybody
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:46 am

eat shit and dont die?
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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miss heart
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby miss heart » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:54 am

The Concise Guide to Self Sufficiency - John Seymour

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concise-Guide-S ... d_sim_b_13

Probablly the best I've seen, there a lot of other's, but this one has a kind of old style charm about it basically covers everything in a fair amount of depth, and everything from making fences, to storing potoatoes to how you should rotate your gardens, to get a good solid all year round harvest.
Life is not about the second chances, it's about a leettle mouse and his voyage to an exciting new land, that, my friend, is what life is.

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PertHJ
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:52 pm

kettles wrote:I thought it was something to do with washing our veges too much, and losing the B12 that grows in the soil? something like that.


Nah B12 is pretty much (as in I've done heaps of research and found no other proven natural source) only found in animal products (meat,dairy eggs). I'm pretty sure the b12 from soil bacteria is another vegan urban myth
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Rob Anybody
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Rob Anybody » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:20 pm

i thought b12 was available from many sources and you just had to grow it
snuff wrote:I hate the whole 'atheist' tag eh, It's not like we have a special name for people who don't believe in Santa, they're just adults.

Huey wrote:Trust me, I am ahead of the curve, you just don't realize it.

"I'm not sure about this one ... I think it's about coming of age, I cant remember much about because when it happened to me it was a long time ago. You could buy a packet of fags, a pint of beer and a three piece suit for half a crown and still have enough left to go and see Rudolf Valentino at the Gaumont! I can't afford to go to the pictures these days but I hear they talk in them now."

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Andrew_TA
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby Andrew_TA » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:29 pm

PertHJ wrote:
kettles wrote:I thought it was something to do with washing our veges too much, and losing the B12 that grows in the soil? something like that.


Nah B12 is pretty much (as in I've done heaps of research and found no other proven natural source) only found in animal products (meat,dairy eggs). I'm pretty sure the b12 from soil bacteria is another vegan urban myth

so when marmite and soy milk and stuff is fortified with b12 it's from animal sources?
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PertHJ
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Re: Self-sustainable vegans

Postby PertHJ » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:16 pm

no, it's produced from bacteria in a lab (which probably would have once upon a time been cultured from bacteria from animals)
http://hungjurynz.bandcamp.com/
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