Otago Uni Christians Try to Brainwash Queers

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funkmaster
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Postby funkmaster » Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:29 pm

I'm not sure what "repression rules" means - you think I'm brainwashed?! Fine. You can think that if you want, but you should know that every decision I've ever made regarding this I've made on my own, without anybody ever telling me to do this, or to do that. I never chose to be gay, but I did chose not to be. I could just as easily choose to go back if I wanted to - as it happens, I don't.

You can believe me, or you can not. I'd rather you gave me and others like me the benefit of the doubt - gays and straights should be able to live together, it'd make society a much nicer and altogether more pleasant place to be. We should be able to live together regardless of our pasts, regardless of what orientation we hold, and of what orientation we held.

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Postby ted the bastard » Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:36 pm

for sure, that's not the impression i got from your actions to date though.

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Postby funkmaster » Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:49 pm

Hmm. I see. So by wanting to live my life the way I want to I'm somehow contributing to gay-hate? I can see how you'd think that.......

Something I've been at pains to point out to people who've asked me about my choices is that I've no problem at all with being gay. I don't think you're ruining your life, and will always be unsatisfied and unhappy just because you're gay. It was simply that I was gay, and didn't want to be, and I figured that there were three options: either die, or accept my homosexuality, or find a way to change. I believe I've found that way, though in the minds of a lot of people that makes me worse than Hitler. I want to make very, very, very clear indeed that I'm not a homophobe, nor am I anti-gay. Nothing I have ever said could be seen to be anti-gay: in fact, I've always maintained that if you're gay, and you're happy, then good. I'm not going to stop you, and I certainly won't hate you, and (I know it's a cliche) but I have gay friends who don't care that I used to be and aren't any longer. They can accept me for who I am, just as I accept them for who they are. It's all about tolerance for diversity - something which, admittedly, most people think Christians don't know much about (which is sad, really).

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Postby slob » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:46 pm

funkmaster wrote: It was simply that I was gay, and didn't want to be,

michael jackson wrote: it was simply that i was black, and didnt want to be,

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Postby xsfat » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:47 am

Hello! I'm the real live "ex-gay" who attempted to convince people that the gay lifestyle was unwholesome and not Christian

you realise that if you didnt say the above, everyone would be applauding you
your life, you choose how you live. like you said you can choose to go back etc
I was going to say "why do you even promote this"
I'll answer my own question: "to let others in my situation know they are not alone"
BUT
please dont drag religion into this, that is just fuckin warped
dont contradict yourself with words like "wholesome"
as much as you would like to have us think your movement is about choices
its too transparent, laying guilt (wholesome?) on others is unacceptable

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Postby YULE » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:06 am

When you accept principles from a book that is openly homophobic, sexist and racist (i hate christianity with a vengence, but then i find most/all religions utterly stupid. thats not the point though) you arent leaving yourself open to diversity.

NEWSFLASH we have moved on 2000 years since the writing of the last bits of that book. Things change. It hasnt.

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Postby Any Day Now » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:20 am

the bibles been rewritten so many times since it was orgionally written, its hard to trust anything, just another fairytale......recycled myths and religions, more notably paganism.

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Re: Otago Uni Christians Try to Brainwash Queers

Postby cirE » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:54 am

funkmaster wrote:Hello! I'm the real live "ex-gay"

if you aren't gay now you were never gay
Future Shock wrote:freudian slip, went downa likea sack o potatoes

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Re: Otago Uni Christians Try to Brainwash Queers

Postby chrisbucks » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:35 am

cirE wrote:
funkmaster wrote:Hello! I'm the real live "ex-gay"

if you aren't gay now you were never gay

Silly straight edge catch phrase you dork. :roll:


I find fundimentalist Christian teachings which say that sexuality is entirely of someones personal choosing and that homosexuals CHOOSE to be gay, because they're spitting in the face of God or something, and that they just need to be turned away from their sinful lives.
Well, if sexuality is nothing but a persons own choice, then by that logic heterosexual, in fact, rather ALL people have the possibility of changing their sexuality at will.
This is where I find these teachings wrong, the fact that you believe that sexual identity is just like a club you join or clothes you wear is absurd, and which is why I cannot argue with you on it, because it is illogical and makes no sense at all.
‹Rob Anybody› yeh that is an implied threat... an almost threat, god you need to research what a threat is you spinless waterballon man


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Postby chrisbucks » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:42 am

Just an addition to this delightful story. One of the lives you lived, was a lie... that is, either when you were apparently 'gay' or now you new found 'ex-gay' life. There is a period of your life, called puberty, ie: that period between perhaps 9 and the late period of your teens, in this period people spend a lot of time trying to discover themselves, what works for them. Namely their sexual identity, and most people go through a period of sexual confusion, perhaps this is what you experienced?
Otherwise perhaps you're one of these people who like to claim they were gay, in an effort to make a point. Whatever made you decide you were gay in the first place? You got hard over another dude in class once? Wake up, it happens all the time... a teenager will get horny over a bowl of rice given enough suggestion.

this is rambling... perhaps i'll return to continue this silly conversation at another time.
‹Rob Anybody› yeh that is an implied threat... an almost threat, god you need to research what a threat is you spinless waterballon man


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Postby funkmaster » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:38 pm

I'm not sure which one of these posts to reply to. They all contain things which are worthy of comment (Any Day Now: what evidence do you have? Yule: by not allowing me to accept whatever principles I like, you're not leaving yourself open to diversity either. Slob: touche. Xsfat: I hate religion too. It's a human construct designed to explain thunder. God, on the other hand, stands outside religion. If that's confusing - and it is, true - think about it a bit before replying. cirE: If I had a dollar for every time someone told me that, I'd be able to buy you a car). The one I'll devote most of this post to is chris brutal - it's the most rational.

I agree that fundamentalist Christians who say that people choose to be gay are dickheads - they've no idea what they're talking about. I didn't choose to gay (though I did choose not to be). I do agree though that if a gay person can choose not to be gay then a straight person can choose not to be straight. Human sexuality isn't static; rather, it's fluid. Instead of having sexualities in neat little categories (homo-, hetero-, bi-, trans-, a-), and to say that you're either gay, or you're straight, or you're both, and you're that way from birth whether you like it or not, it's better to say that sexualities are positioned along a continuum, with, say, hetero- at one end and homo- at the other, and bi- somewhere in the middle. Kinsey supported this idea of continual sexuality in his scale of homosexual incidence, where he described people, men particularly, as being at various points (0 to 6, 0 being exclusively hetero- and 6 being exclusively homo-) along a sliding scale. He posited that it was conceivable for people to be able to move up and down the continuum as they desired. He could never decide whether people all start at 0 or 6 or some other number, or whether all people begin life as asexuals and have their later sexuality imprinted on them as a result of their environment, underlying psychology, antenatal influences (some research lately is pointing towards the possibility of homosexuality being caused by a higher-than-average exposure to various hormones whilst still an embryo) or possibly some sort of genetic influence (which raises interesting questions in terms of evolutionary theory, incidentally). Kinsey's idea of continual sexuality was later supported by researchers at the University of Chicago (go here: http://cloud9.norc.uchicago.edu/faqs/sex.htm), Texas A and M University, the University of California (both Santa Barbara and Berkeley), London South Bank University, the University of Indiana, Humboldt University (Berlin), Johns Hopkins University, University of Western Ontario, University of Vermont, Queensland Insitute of Medical Research at Royal Brisbane Hospital, Michigan State University, and the Sociology Quantitative Research Laboratory at Northern Illinois University, amongst others.

The idea of continual sexuality need not be seen as a threat to anybody, and it certainly does not negate the need for gay rights. I'm in favour of gay marriage, and am convinced that GLBT people deserve full and equal treatment in society, with plenary rights and privileges. We now know that sexuality is fluid, continual, changeable. Whether we imbue that ability to change with some sort of moral position depends on the individual, but the point remains that a sexual continuum exists and movement up and down that continuum is possible - movement in both directions.

Insofar as my own experience is concerned, and in response to your second post (chris): if I were you, I wouldn't be so bold as to assume that I was either lying to myself when I was gay or I'm lying to myself now. I'll put this to you: how did you know you were gay - and not when did you first think you might be gay, but when did you KNOW? I knew, firmly, when I was about 15. Also, how many men do I have to have sex with before I can confirm that I'm gay? 1? 2? 10? 30? How many boyfriends do I need to have had? What percentage of my thoughts need to be "gay?" One can turn all those questions around, and ask the same of being straight. At what point does one know, and not suppose but actually know, that one is straight? How many women (or men) does one need to have sex with? What percentage of thoughts need to be "straight?" How does one measure these things? I was gay. Completely. I used to fuck men and enjoy it, every moment. I was gay, and liked it, and identified with it, and it empowered me, and so on. Now, I'm straight, and I like it, and identify with it, and so forth. I've slid down the continuum - I could go back up it, but I'm quite content here, and you're quite content there, and I'm happy for you to be there and I'd rather you were happy for me, and others like me, to exist and to acknowledge that we have changed our sexuality, and to accept that our having changed our sexualities in no way is a threat to yourself.

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Postby xsfat » Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:11 am

God, on the other hand, stands outside religion

Hello! I'm the real live "ex-gay" who attempted to convince people that the gay lifestyle was unwholesome and not Christian

I agree with your first quote. dont you try to justify any of your actions on higher reasons

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Postby chrisbucks » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:30 pm

I do find one thing strange though, living as an 'ex-gay' is going against the will of God. Because God made you who you are, therefore by turning around and 'no wanting to take the life god gave you'.
I dont believe that homosexuality is non-christian. Do understand that Christianity is the teaching of that dude Jesus Christ, not that tome called the Old Testiment... although I notice that many Christians like to pick and choose from either where they like to apply that word. The word homosexual didnt appear in the Bible until 1953, so I ask, did Jesus say anything about homosexuality? Given he never wrote anything, and everything in the New Testiment are the diaries and letters of his followers.
So, what I'm trying to find out is that, 'is homosexuality un-christian?'
Given that in the case of Catholicism, ordained priests are required to be asexual (engaging in neither gay or heterosexual acts), where is the decision that homosexuality is banned/unwholesome?

I think living in spite of yourself is the most unwholesome thing, and teaching that someone be they black, white, asian, maori, homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual is unclean or heathen, is unwholesome.

Go read the bible and read the passage called "before pointing out the speck in your neighbours eye, pull the log out of yours"
or words to the effect.
‹Rob Anybody› yeh that is an implied threat... an almost threat, god you need to research what a threat is you spinless waterballon man


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Postby Deuce » Sun Sep 18, 2005 7:36 pm

chris brutal wrote:Go read the bible and read the passage called "before pointing out the speck in your neighbours eye, pull the log out of yours"
or words to the effect.


Or let he 'who is free from sin cast the first stone' or something like that. I think they were going to stone some woman for cheating on her husband?

Personally, I think the whole argument that homosexuality is wrong because a 2000 year old book says it is is a fucking stupid argument. If someone wrote a book now about how to live in todays society, and then someone dug it up in the year 4005, do you think it would be still relevant? (Well obviously those things like love your enemies and other such stuff that would help us to better ourselves as humans would still be relevant, but y'know.) Basically, if they arent hurting anyone then I think its noones business but their own.

And I still dont get why these people get up in arms about some part in a book that apparently implies that homosexuality is wrong, and that same book says that killing is wrong and you should love basically everyone, and then people go off and start fucking wars for no reason and they dont bat an eyelid.

Make up your own damn mind, the ability to think is what makes us human, and according to this 2000 year old book, 'God' gave us that ability and as chris brutal said giving that up is going against the will of god (not taking the life that god gave you). So dont take the word of a book, think for your damn self. If you want be gay, if you want to be straight, if you want to be like a flower and be asexual, then more power to you, just dont bother anyone else.[/rant]
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Postby ... » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:34 pm

i love it how the people talked about on punkas just seem to show up to defend themselves, its so awesome.

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Postby Deuce » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:42 pm

Its the magic of television.

'..and heres one I prepared earlier!'
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Postby YULE » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:09 am

Yule: by not allowing me to accept whatever principles I like, you're not leaving yourself open to diversity either.

Heh, im not saying that you cant accept those principles, merely that by accepting those principles you arent leaving yourself open to diversity.

God is also a human construct, created to deal with the problem of equality when still wanting an alpha male.

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Postby funkmaster » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:04 pm

Chris: about whether Jesus said anything about homosexuality: he didn't say anything about it, and as to the fact that the word "homosexual" only appeared in the Bible in the last century, the word itself was only invented the century before so that's really a moot point. There's a lengthy article about Jesus and homosexuality and the Biblical position on it generally here:
http://www.ldolphin.org/Homo.shtml. For an alternative view, go here: http://www.galha.org/briefing/jesus.html, or here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm. For the really right-wing view, go here: http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp? ... yid=family.

Insofar as my changing my sexuality is concerned, and whether it goes against the will of God: hmmm. It would be going against His will if one accepted that gays are born gay, and are therefore predestined to be gay no matter what. However, as I said in a post above (and if you delve into both the empirical and axiological research) the jury is still out as to whether we are born sexed, or if we all begin as asexuals or heterosexuals or quite what. Think about this though: if homosexuality IS a sin, and God creates people gay and therefore perpetually in sin, then what possible hope could they have if the other claims of the Bible are also true (particularly the bits that say that if you sin then you must be separated from God when you die)? They'd have no hope at all, and that wouldn't make sense with other scriptures which tell us that it is not God's will that anyone should perish (be sent to Hell). As to whether homosexuality is un-Christian: well, that depends really. People like Lloyd Geering and John Shelby Spong would tell you that homosexuality is perfectly compatible with Christianity and that when the Bible says it's a sin it's actually either mistaken or it only applies to certain kinds of homosexuality (like when two straight guys fuck each other). On the other hand, you've got Christians like the Pope who say homosexuality is one of the worst of all sins and it's up there with child rape and incest and bestiality. It really comes down to a question of basic axiology: is homosexuality moral, immoral, or amoral? If it's amoral, then who cares? If moral, then go for it. If immoral, then stop. As to which one you believe it to be, well it comes down to various subjective premises (like God, whose existence is objective, but human belief in Him is subjective).

When it comes to that whole "casting the first stone" thing: that's something that a lot of Christians seem to forget nowadays. Brian Tamaki, for example: spends all day bashing gays with the "sin and repent" stick, and then goes home to his million-dollar home. Sure, he can argue that God blesses him with a nice house - no problem. But he'd be in a far better position morally if he sold his house and gave the money to the poor. That's what Jesus would do (actually). Or, consider Graham Capill. He was raping little girls and then telling people like Georgina Beyer and Chris Carter that THEY were depraved! How could one man be so damnably arrogant?

You'll observe in all this that I try and consistently avoid condemnation. Condemning people is a sin: if you've got a Bible handy, flip through to the book of Romans. At the end of chapter one and the beginning of chapter two, Paul lists a whole swag of things that aren't cool: lying, cheating, stealing, murder, adultery, violence, drunkeness. He also includes homosexuality on that list. In the very next sentence, he says but if you go out as a Christian and condemn those people and judge them then you yourself will be judged. Are gays going to go to Hell when they die? I've no idea. It's not my decision to make, it isn't my problem - it's for God to decide. The greater question, and this is one that a lot of Christians particularly seem to ignore in their quest to drive gays back into the alleys and public toilets of the world, is what are you going to do with the claims of Christ? He claimed to be the Son of God, and said that if you didn't believe that to be so, and didn't allow Him to be your Saviour, then you couldn't get into Heaven. Whether your life is filled with sin is irrevelant in the light of that particularly question: Jesus said that you can't get to Heaven except through Him. What are you going to do about that?

Obviously (Yule!) it presupposes that Jesus is the Son of God, but if He is then His claims are something to consider. By the way, in accepting Biblical principles I can leave myself open to diversity. One Biblical principle is that Christians are different, and do things differently, from the rest of the world. If the world wants to do X and Christians say Y is better, then we are bound to allow the world to do what it wants. It's against Biblical teaching to force Christian beliefs onto others - the key, and this is something I've consistently tried to do (not always successfully, I'll admit) is to make sure that if you're talking about something that is in the world that is contrary to a Biblical position, then you do so with the utmost love and the utmost acceptance. Notice how in the Bible it was Jesus's disciples that went round condeming people because they didn't do EXACTLY what God said? Jesus never condemned. He's God, and God is love.

Deuce: you're absolutely right. The ability to think is what makes us human. We're rational and cogniscent and sentient. By the way, the Bible recognises this. It says at one point that God saw that a lot of people didn't believe in Him, and wanted to do what ever they wanted, and He lets them. He gave you free will, and expects you to use it. You'll observe too that I've always (read ALWAYS) maintained that if you're gay and you WANT to be, then fantastic. All power to you. I'll even champion gay rights for you, and give you directions to the local sauna or queer disco. As to whether a 2000-year-old book is still relevant: up to you to make your own mind up on that one. It did strike me as ironic that in one part of your (Deuce) post you imply that only using certain bits of the Bible is wrong (gays=wrong, but let's all go and have a war even though the Bible prohibits that too) but seem to approve of people picking and choosing from your hypothetical book in 4005......

I'm going to close this post by calling this whole thread for what it is: a dead horse. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe, and one of us is right and one of us is wrong, and either of us trying to convince the other is flogging a horse that is never going to move because it's dead. What's required is unity through diversity, acceptance that I can think and believe something utterly contrary to you and still be a nice guy.

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Postby Deuce » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:38 pm

funkmaster wrote:Deuce: you're absolutely right. The ability to think is what makes us human. We're rational and cogniscent and sentient. By the way, the Bible recognises this. It says at one point that God saw that a lot of people didn't believe in Him, and wanted to do what ever they wanted, and He lets them. He gave you free will, and expects you to use it. You'll observe too that I've always (read ALWAYS) maintained that if you're gay and you WANT to be, then fantastic. All power to you. I'll even champion gay rights for you, and give you directions to the local sauna or queer disco.


Yeah, I didnt mean to yell at you or nothing, I just get angry with the whole bigoted viewpoint of some christians.

funkmaster wrote:As to whether a 2000-year-old book is still relevant: up to you to make your own mind up on that one. It did strike me as ironic that in one part of your (Deuce) post you imply that only using certain bits of the Bible is wrong (gays=wrong, but let's all go and have a war even though the Bible prohibits that too) but seem to approve of people picking and choosing from your hypothetical book in 4005......


What I meant was that 'base' views of christianity (this is all coming from my limited knowledge of the bible mind you) e.g. love thy enemy, dont kill etc., are all points that if people live their life by they will probably live an enlightened life, whereas all the other stuff that has been written about a society that existed 2000 years ago where stoning people for stepping out of line was a common occurance is maybe not the most applicable to todays society. But like I said, I have a reasonably limited knowledge of the bible, so I may be way off track here.
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Postby Dirty Dancin' Dave » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:29 am

Just thought I might add... Jesus wouldn't have had to say much about homosexuality... he was preaching to Jews.
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Postby Amphetamine » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:14 am

I think people should just remember that all humans really are, are intelligent animals. A lot of the things we do are because of instinct, and as "homosexuality" has been observed in different animal species, why not in our species? Humans aren't especially wonderful or cool, in fact we've pretty much screwed up the planet.

We are just another species of animal, that happens to be afraid of its own mortality. Because we are afraid of death, we create the afterlife/reincarnation, whatever, and because we are curious we create a creator/s, and because we want power and order so as to survive, we create society, we link those three things together and create god/s and religion.

No one who is involved in consensual, adult sexual acts, no matter what they be, should feel guilty, or pressured to change. If its not hurting anyone, and it makes you happy, then why the fuck not?


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